George Foreman vs Harry Greb

[red cobra]

I'm more interested in Lionel Rose-Sonny Liston.

[McGrain]

Greb has a great chance. I pick Foreman, no money down.

[MRBILL]

Originally Posted by janitor

You obviously dont think very highly of Foreman if you rate his chances that low!

C'mon, Janitor....... You know damn well I think Foreman would smoke Grebbermeister in a fight..........


MR.BILL

[Muchmoore]

I don't think Greb is quite durable enough to withstand Foreman.

[djanders]

Actually, I think Harry would kick George's butt! Can you imagine how weak George would be from having to weigh in at 160?

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by jaffay

Average? Foreman (even 70's version) had good boxing skills. Not awesome, but good.

"Average" skill would be a compliment. He was clueless about balance, had zero defence for the 1-2 (for any punch, actually), and the only reason he didn't get annihilated because of that is because he had such a big size, strength and power advantage over most opponents. Smart boxers with a chin like Ali and Young would've always shut him out, and the only puncher whom he traded with was an inch away from knocking him out (Lyle).

However, Foreman would destroy a smaller swarmer like Greb.

[flamengo]

Originally Posted by djanders

Actually, I think Harry would kick George's butt! Can you imagine how weak George would be from having to weigh in at 160?

Finally some logic.

Just to compliment that, Lionel Rose would crush Liston at Bantamweight!!!


lol.

[spittle8]

I'm guessing Greb would move and punch, hopefully cautiously at first and make Foreman tire. If he did, he'd tag Foreman with shots, but he'd inevitably get hit on the return. If he doesn't catch big shots and get KO'd early it would be very interesting to watch. I wouldn't bet on Greb clearly, but it's such a strange and awkward matchup I'd want to see it.

So I think it'd be reasonably competitive, but Foreman most likely blasts his shit out and brutalizes Greb.

[Flea Man]

Greb would be sparked in a couple of rounds.....super tough, but compared to the 70's HW's I can't see he would stand a chance....of course if I'd seen any footage of him rather than reading about him I might give him a better shot.

Foreman K.O 1

[jaffay]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

"Average" skill would be a compliment. He was clueless about balance, had zero defence for the 1-2 (for any punch, actually), and the only reason he didn't get annihilated because of that is because he had such a big size, strength and power advantage over most opponents. Smart boxers with a chin like Ali and Young would've always shut him out, and the only puncher whom he traded with was an inch away from knocking him out (Lyle).

However, Foreman would destroy a smaller swarmer like Greb.

I think that if Foreman was actually boxing rather than clubbing his opponents, he wouldn't be so effective in 70's and his power couldnt be fully used in the ring.
But all this power wont give you much without some skills. Jab, cutting the ring, movement etc.
I don't agree with your point that "Smart boxers with a chin like Ali and Young would've always shut him out, and the only puncher whom he traded with was an inch away from knocking him out (Lyle)."
Ali survived Foremans mauling and exhausted him. With Young, Foreman lost mostly because of his ignorance. He fought Lyle after 1,5 year of inactivity and tried to pace himself, which was not so comfortable for him at that time.

[fists of fury]

I like Janitor's subtle humour.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by jaffay

I don't agree with your point that "Smart boxers with a chin like Ali and Young would've always shut him out, and the only puncher whom he traded with was an inch away from knocking him out (Lyle)."
Ali survived Foremans mauling and exhausted him. With Young, Foreman lost mostly because of his ignorance. He fought Lyle after 1,5 year of inactivity and tried to pace himself, which was not so comfortable for him at that time.

Whether you agree with it or not, these are the FACTS of Foreman's career:

-Ali did not exhaust Foreman. Foreman exhausted himself. Did Ali force him to fight at a high pace? No, he laid on the ropes doing fuck all compared to someone who makes you work at a pace higher than you want to

-Young, other than Ali, was the only skilled boxer with some durability that Foreman faced during his prime, and he easily beat Foreman winning every round but the 9th. In fact, he knocked the man down despite having a reputation of being a feather fisted puncher. You might repeat that Foreman was tired, but again, Young is anything but a pressure fighter. If you tire against two boxers who don't make you fight at all, how is your stamina going to hold up against anyone decent that you can't blow out of the water? You say that he lost to Jimmy because of "ignorance". What does that even mean? Young, like Ali, took advantage of the wide open defence and lack of his boxing skills. If he had anything resembling power, he would've knocked out Foreman, just like Ali (who isn't all that powerful either). Just look at the tape, man. He has tremendous power, strength and size (for the time), but his boxing skills are thoroughly absent.

-Lyle was the only puncher who landed on Foreman and he nearly stopped the man. What do you mean by "Foreman was trying to pace himself" ? Did you see the fight and how many punches George threw?

-Despite the excuse you make for him in every of those fights, fact remains that during his prime, he never beat a skilled boxer with some durability, and the only puncher he got into an exchange with was this close to knocking him out. Note that the only top contender that Lyle ever stopped was Shavers, who has a very weak jaw and has been stopped several times by mediocre opponents.

[jaffay]

-Ali did not exhaust Foreman. Foreman exhausted himself.

Ok

You say that he lost to Jimmy because of "ignorance". What does that even mean? Young, like Ali, took advantage of the wide open defence and lack of his boxing skills. If he had anything resembling power, he would've knocked out Foreman, just like Ali (who isn't all that powerful either). Just look at the tape, man. He has tremendous power, strength and size (for the time), but his boxing skills are thoroughly absent.

I heard that Foreman arrived to PR one day (!) before the fight. He chased Young like a idiot, hunting for that one good shot. Foreman was convinced that it would be another easy fight for him. He was wrong.

-Lyle was the only puncher who landed on Foreman and he nearly stopped the man. What do you mean by "Foreman was trying to pace himself" ? Did you see the fight and how many punches George threw?

As I remember, Foreman started the fight less agressive than he used to. That gave Lyle some chances which later turned to wild brawl.

I don't thnk that I'm making excuses. Foreman lost to Ali and Young - period. But I think that he had a little more than "average" boxing skills.

[MRBILL]

Grebster MIGHT do well early while Foreman lumbers about the ring, but after 3 or 4 rds of stalking, Greb tires from running and begins to stand his ground..... BAM! Fight over... Foreman by KO.... Cheers.....

MR.BILL

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by jaffay

Ok



I heard that Foreman arrived to PR one day (!) before the fight. He chased Young like a idiot, hunting for that one good shot. Foreman was convinced that it would be another easy fight for him. He was wrong.



As I remember, Foreman started the fight less agressive than he used to. That gave Lyle some chances which later turned to wild brawl.

I don't thnk that I'm making excuses. Foreman lost to Ali and Young - period. But I think that he had a little more than "average" boxing skills.

Fair enough. I don't think either of us are going to change each others minds. My rant goes on, though:


If Foreman's boxing skills are average, then which top boxer is below average in terms of skillset? Max Baer is one that springs to mind, but they are far and few in between. "Average" is defined as having just as many below that level as above. I'm talking top level boxers, of course. And compared to top level boxers, if Foreman has average skills, then why are there so few who were lesser skilled than him?

Let's just look at his era. Frazier had better skills. As did Ali, Ellis, Quarry, Lyle, Young, Holmes, Leon Spinks, Norton and Bugner. The only ones with lesser skills would be Shavers and Bonavena, but even for them one could argue they're on par with Foreman in terms of skill.

I think you're getting the point. Of the something like 10 top boxers from his time, his skillset is with the bottom 10%. That's not average.