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Old 08-19-2009, 01:17 PM   #76
SuzieQ49
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

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For some reason Jack Demspey is tagged for using the color line as champion, but Jack Johnson is not. I'll never understand why.

Wanna know the difference? Jack Johnson actually FOUGHT his top black fighters, whether they were at there peaks or not. It is far greater to have there names on your resume than not. Jack Johnson has Sam Langford, Sam Mcvea 3x, Joe Jeanette 6x, Frank Childs 3x, Hank Griffin 2x, Denver Ed Martin 3x on his resume. This is far more impressive than Dempsey just having John Lester Johnson on his resume.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:41 PM   #77
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

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None of those fighters were still considered the top 3 challengers for Johnson's crown in 1914-1915.

Umm Ya. Sam Langford was most certainly the # 1 dog and had been so for some time. Press all around the world accused Johnson of ducking Langford. Then A greenhorn named Harry Wills comes out of nowhere in his 15th pro fight and upsets the # 1 contender! Johnson was also accused of ducking Joe Jeanette who was certainly a top contender as well as Sam Mcvea. Why would he be accused of ducking these guys if they were not top contenders?

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Gunboat Smith was considered the leading contender in 1914 before losing to Carpentier, after which there was a lot of debate and confusion over who (if anyone) should be considered leading contender.

Sam Langford KNOCKED OUT Gunboat Smith right around the time Wills beat Langford. Also Joe Jeanette beat Georges Carpentier. Its quite clear the consensus has always been Langford, Jeanette, and Mcvea were the top dogs to johnsons crown 1909-1914. Your little white crusade is not going to change that.

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No he shouldn't have, because he was only beating the same dead horses over and over without fighting any of the top contenders, plus he had quit to Battling Jim Johnson just before that.

Dead Horses? LOL in 1914 Sam Langford was only 31 years old and was cleaning out the division at the time. He was undisputably the # 1 contender and had been ducked for years. Wills beat him either at the tail of end of his prime or just one year removed. Fulton beat langford a good 4 years removed from his prime.

Joe Jeanette despite being in his 30s was coming off some tremendous victories and would go on another long undefeated streak right after his loss to Wills. According to a conversation I had with Boxing Historian Kevin Smith, he told me wills was still in his prime when Wills fought him in 1913...and Wills was quite young and green at the time.


Mcvea was still without doubt a top dog in 1914-1915 performing very well against jeanette and langford and doing quite well himself against Wills. A Mcvea-Johnson fight was supposed to come off numerous times, but failed to sign.


Fact of the matter is Jeanette in 1914-1915 was knocking off men who weree considered LEGITIMATE contenders to jack johnsons crown, and who would become hall of famers...and wills was BEATING them. Did Fulton ever defeat 3 hall of fame top contenders during the first couple years of his career?




Here is the interview I had with Kevin Smith Author of many great boxing books


"Firstly, I think that Harry Wills' series with Sam Langford proved that if you fought Sam enough he would eventually clean your clock. People often point to Harry's two KO losses to Langford as some sort of negative point that he had no chin or couldn't take it. That is pure crap in my mind. Langford could knock anyman out--and again if you fought him enough times, he WOULD knock you out. It was that simple in my mind. That being said, Sam was taking a good beating in both of those KO wins prior to landing the big punch that brought home the bacon. I think Harry deserves credit to the high heavens for fighting Sam as he did. The guy, even as a semi blind, pudgy version of his old self, was no walk in the park.
I have always felt that Sam's prime was 1907-1913. After that you can begin to see some *****s in the armor. During those 6 or seven odd years however, he fought something like 94 fights and was defeated only twice(officially), by Gunboat Smith(for whom he was not in shape and pulling to) in 1913 and Sam McVey(which many said was a bad decision) in 1911 Sam knocked out Smith in three rounds less than a year later and defeated McVey four times in 1912. The guy was just a monster.
Jeanette and Wills first met in 1913, which I think still fell in Jeanette's prime. This guy didn't loose much during the early teen years--he didn't lose much period. In fact the only guy to officially beat him from 1910 until the close of his career nearly a decade later was--well you guessed it--Sam langford. Jeannette was a guy who a great longevity to his career and was competitive until he hung them up. Wills' bouts with him 1913 and 1914 were certainly legit.
McVey is also interesting that his career as a competitive fighter was very long. He was probably nearing the end of his prime when he began sqauring off with Harry in 1914 and 1915, but still, not many guys would have beaten him then.
IMO Harry was not green when he began matching up with these three great fighters, but was certainly not a very experienced battler. he had nary 3 years under his belt and that is not a great deal when you begin to fight ten year plus veterans who happen to be some of the best of their generation and perhaps all time. I think Harry was willing to take his lumps against these guys and learned a great deal from them. You can see it in the record as he begins to improve in each outing against the trio. Sure they were getting older, but so too was Harry getting better and more skilled. I think Wills hit his prime along about 1916 and remained in his finest form until about 1923. After that I think inactivity and age began to erode his reflexes and skill." - Kevin Smith


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Not really, given that he beat Langford far more impressively and decisively than Wills had in his previous wins.
I wouldn't say that. Fulton simply fought a much older version. Wills was dominating a younger sharper better Langford on the cards as far back as 1914. Fulton fought a older diminished langford in 1917. When Wills took on Langford during that time period, he scored multiple knockouts over langford too.

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That Wills' arguably best and most troublesome rival was being used merely as a comeback opponent for Fulton is indicative of the higher level of opposition Fulton was fighting at this time.
Langford was on his last legs by 1917. But in 1914 when Wills beat him, Langford was the top dog and considered the MAN johnson had to fight. Wills scored a huge upset of him. Then yet another...As for his most "Troubling" rival, I can gaurantee you if Fulton fought a 1914 version of langford then tangled with him 7 more times up to 1917 he would have at least multiple kayo losses if not more. Fact of the matter is Percentage wise, Wills dominated Langford. Sure a great fighter like Langford will catch him a couple times during that stretch, but Wills still handily won the series around 13 wins to 2 losses. a high percentage. If winning 13 matches out of 15 against a more experienced ATG is considered "having trouble" then your standards must be very high.


As for competition...please explain to me outside of a far past his prime langford, who Fulton beat around that time who were as good as Joe Jeanete and Sam Mcvea? It is my estimation that beating 1914-1915 versions of Jenette, Mcvea, and Langford are better wins than anything Fulton recorded during that stretch.

Also I would like to point out that I think Harry Wills utter schooling and domination of Fred Fulton in 1920 proved all along that Wills, Langford, Mcvea and Jeanette were simply better than the white crop had to offer. Funny how Dempsey PROMISED if Wills beat Fulton soundily, he would give harry a title shot. yet the next day signed to fight a DYING billy miske! LOL. Looks Harry Wills performed TO GOOD for dempsey.


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No, common sense. He did something Wills hadn't been able to do yet, and he got noticed for it.
No it is common sense Wills fought a younger better version. When Wills fought the 1917-1918 langford, he twice knocked sam out during that period. Its not like Fred Fulton beat a 1914 Sam Langford.


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To have pretended Fulton didn't beat Langford more impressively than Wills had would've been racism.

Whats your definition of Impressive? Wills won practically every round on the cards. Was Joe Calzaghes performance against Jeff Lacy any less dominating than Manny Pacmans performance against oscar de la hoya, just because Lacy saw the final bell?

2ndly, harry wills knocked out sam langford twice facing the same version of langford fulton stopped.

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 08-19-2009 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 08-20-2009, 03:51 AM   #78
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Umm Ya. Sam Langford was most certainly the # 1 dog and had been so for some time.
No, he wasn't. He had been supplanted as the #1 by Gunboat Smith the previous year.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Then A greenhorn named Harry Wills comes out of nowhere in his 15th pro fight and upsets the # 1 contender!
Langford wasn't the #1 contender on May 5, 1914, Smith was. And nobody knows how many fights Wills had had at that time, his early record is incomplete.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Why would he be accused of ducking these guys if they were not top contenders?
Why do you accuse fighters of ducking George Godfrey at times when he wasn't a top contender?

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Sam Langford KNOCKED OUT Gunboat Smith right around the time Wills beat Langford.
How does that change what Smith's ranking had been six months earlier?

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Also Joe Jeanette beat Georges Carpentier.
What does that have to do with anything?

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Its quite clear the consensus has always been Langford, Jeanette, and Mcvea were the top dogs to johnsons crown 1909-1914.
No, it isn't. Contemporary reports generally denote them as having lost their statuses as leading contenders by the end of 1913.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Dead Horses? LOL in 1914 Sam Langford was only 31 years old and was cleaning out the division at the time. He was undisputably the # 1 contender and had been ducked for years. Wills beat him either at the tail of end of his prime or just one year removed. Fulton beat langford a good 4 years removed from his prime.

Joe Jeanette despite being in his 30s was coming off some tremendous victories and would go on another long undefeated streak right after his loss to Wills. According to a conversation I had with Boxing Historian Kevin Smith, he told me wills was still in his prime when Wills fought him in 1913...and Wills was quite young and green at the time.


Mcvea was still without doubt a top dog in 1914-1915 performing very well against jeanette and langford and doing quite well himself against Wills. A Mcvea-Johnson fight was supposed to come off numerous times, but failed to sign.


Fact of the matter is Jeanette in 1914-1915 was knocking off men who weree considered LEGITIMATE contenders to jack johnsons crown, and who would become hall of famers...and wills was BEATING them. Did Fulton ever defeat 3 hall of fame top contenders during the first couple years of his career?




Here is the interview I had with Kevin Smith Author of many great boxing books


"Firstly, I think that Harry Wills' series with Sam Langford proved that if you fought Sam enough he would eventually clean your clock. People often point to Harry's two KO losses to Langford as some sort of negative point that he had no chin or couldn't take it. That is pure crap in my mind. Langford could knock anyman out--and again if you fought him enough times, he WOULD knock you out. It was that simple in my mind. That being said, Sam was taking a good beating in both of those KO wins prior to landing the big punch that brought home the bacon. I think Harry deserves credit to the high heavens for fighting Sam as he did. The guy, even as a semi blind, pudgy version of his old self, was no walk in the park.
I have always felt that Sam's prime was 1907-1913. After that you can begin to see some *****s in the armor. During those 6 or seven odd years however, he fought something like 94 fights and was defeated only twice(officially), by Gunboat Smith(for whom he was not in shape and pulling to) in 1913 and Sam McVey(which many said was a bad decision) in 1911 Sam knocked out Smith in three rounds less than a year later and defeated McVey four times in 1912. The guy was just a monster.
Jeanette and Wills first met in 1913, which I think still fell in Jeanette's prime. This guy didn't loose much during the early teen years--he didn't lose much period. In fact the only guy to officially beat him from 1910 until the close of his career nearly a decade later was--well you guessed it--Sam langford. Jeannette was a guy who a great longevity to his career and was competitive until he hung them up. Wills' bouts with him 1913 and 1914 were certainly legit.
McVey is also interesting that his career as a competitive fighter was very long. He was probably nearing the end of his prime when he began sqauring off with Harry in 1914 and 1915, but still, not many guys would have beaten him then.
IMO Harry was not green when he began matching up with these three great fighters, but was certainly not a very experienced battler. he had nary 3 years under his belt and that is not a great deal when you begin to fight ten year plus veterans who happen to be some of the best of their generation and perhaps all time. I think Harry was willing to take his lumps against these guys and learned a great deal from them. You can see it in the record as he begins to improve in each outing against the trio. Sure they were getting older, but so too was Harry getting better and more skilled. I think Wills hit his prime along about 1916 and remained in his finest form until about 1923. After that I think inactivity and age began to erode his reflexes and skill." - Kevin Smith
This is one of the reports from someone that was actually ALIVE at the time and OBSERVING the fighters and their careers unfold:

The NY Times, December 23, 1913.

Heading: "Johnson, Langford, McVea, and Jeannette are deteriorating rapidly as boxers"

"Langford completely eliminated Sam McVea before he left Australia, and Big Sam has not been heard of since that time. ...He got one decision over Langford two years ago, but three bouts which followed showed McVea on the loser's end, the last bout resulting in a knockout in eleven rounds. This defeat put an end to McVea's pretensions as a heavyweight star.

"Jeannette's showing against Langford at Paris the night after the two Johnsons got together just about ends Joe's claims. It was by the narrowest of margins that the Hoboken negro escaped being knocked out in the thirteenth round, in which he was floored three times, and the final bell found him very groggy and on the ropes. In his recent bout here with Langford Jeannette won on points, but gave unmistakable traces that he was going back as a boxer, a hitter and a mixer. Only Langford's lack of condition enabled the Hoboken negro to win, as Sam was clearly overweight.

"Langford got his quietus from Gunboat Smith in a twelve-round bout at Boston recently. Langford realized that the tide was going against him, and tried hard, the only time he has been really extended by a white boxer in several years, but the old skill was lacking. He had trained hard, according to reports, yet he had been unable to get down to his old fighting weight ...It was the general impression up to the time of the Smith bout that Langford was the class among all heavyweights, white or black, but Gunboat furnished a surprise."

---------------

This was also a contemporary view of Wills' wins over Langford:

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Wills was dominating a younger sharper better Langford on the cards as far back as 1914.
How do you know he was "sharper" without having seen him between those years? That's just a blind assumption.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Langford was on his last legs by 1917. But in 1914 when Wills beat him, Langford was the top dog and considered the MAN johnson had to fight.
Both of these assessments are baseless. In both instances, Langford was still considered dangerous, but in neither case was he still considered at his peak or a leading contender.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Wills scored a huge upset of him. Then yet another...
Where have you seen that Langford was heavily favored in those fights?

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As for his most "Troubling" rival, I can gaurantee you if Fulton fought a 1914 version of langford then tangled with him 7 more times up to 1917 he would have at least multiple kayo losses if not more.
No, you can't "guarantee" that at all. You haven't seen Fulton or either "version" of Langford fight, and the reports on their fight say that Langford was completely shut down and ineffective. This is pure unsubstantiated guesswork on your part.
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Old 08-20-2009, 03:51 AM   #79
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

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Funny how Dempsey PROMISED if Wills beat Fulton soundily, he would give harry a title shot. yet the next day signed to fight a DYING billy miske! LOL. Looks Harry Wills performed TO GOOD for dempsey.
Not really, Dempsey said in the interview in which he made that promise that he wouldn't fight the Wills-Fulton winner for at least another year afterward, and not until he had given Bill Brennan a shot first. He did follow through and sign to fight Wills a year or so after that (after much troublesome negotiations with Wills' team), but commissions kept refusing to hold the fight.

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No it is common sense Wills fought a younger better version. When Wills fought the 1917-1918 langford, he twice knocked sam out during that period. Its not like Fred Fulton beat a 1914 Sam Langford.
No, he failed to knockout the 1917 Langford in three attempts, and was actually held to an even fight by him only a month before Fulton stopped him.


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Was Joe Calzaghes performance against Jeff Lacy any less dominating than Manny Pacmans performance against oscar de la hoya, just because Lacy saw the final bell?
Yes.

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2ndly, harry wills knocked out sam langford twice facing the same version of langford fulton stopped.
How do you know he was "the same" version? Given that you just assume the Langford that Fulton fought was different than any version that Wills had previously fought, what's your reason for assuming he was still "the same" a year later?

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Your little white crusade is not going to change that.
No, but exposing your constant lies, double-talk, and fanciful guesswork does
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:25 PM   #80
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

I think it's worth remembering that Dempsey fought John Lester Johnson under a manager who was totally abusing him, at a time when he was sleeping on a bench in Central Park, trying to make it in the Big Apple. It was his last in a long line of dispiriting fights, and he actually went back home and almost gave up on boxing after it. Fortunately, someone came along who wanted to make the most of his career, not wring him dry.

On Dempsey/Wills:

1. This fight was actually signed for, in 1923, I think. Dempsey wanted it badly, because he knew people were asking questions. However, William Muldoon refused to sanction it. By all accounts, Dempsey was (and remained til his dying day) very upset about this.

2. A past it Dempsey with a bum hip knocked out Jack Sharkey, who had not long before handled Wills easily. Make of that what you will.
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:38 PM   #81
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

Go to this link and click on the image of the news paper article to read

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very good peice I think
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Old 03-08-2011, 07:40 PM   #82
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

Also very importantly for anyone interested in John Lester Johnson - THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE MUST!! MAKE SURE YOU CHECK THIS OUT

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Old 03-09-2011, 08:03 AM   #83
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

thought I'd give this a boost back up for anyone who may have missed it - check out my previous 2 posts above

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Old 03-09-2011, 01:58 PM   #84
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

Interesting. I never knew he went into films.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:21 PM   #85
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey-John Lester Johnson, July 1916

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Wanna know the difference? Jack Johnson actually FOUGHT his top black fighters, whether they were at there peaks or not. It is far greater to have there names on your resume than not. Jack Johnson has Sam Langford, Sam Mcvea 3x, Joe Jeanette 6x, Frank Childs 3x, Hank Griffin 2x, Denver Ed Martin 3x on his resume. This is far more impressive than Dempsey just having John Lester Johnson on his resume.

....how about the fact that he blatantly ducked his 4 best challengers in his title reign?
Langford, Smith, Jeanette, Mcvey?

These guys had wins over fighters which Johnson gave title shots to.
Dempsey gets allot of crap for "ducking" his best black challenger; i can only imagine how much cuss he would had got if he ducked his 4 best challengers.
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