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Old 08-31-2007, 10:26 AM   #46
red cobra
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

I guess in the same way that Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali didn't really beat Sonny Liston?
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Old 08-31-2007, 10:31 AM   #47
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Yeah, what a shame boxing history isn't littered with fighters saying "aah, **** it, I can't be arsed tonight, let's do it again next time instead". I'm sure the sport would increase 100% in popularity. They'd have to hold every fight in 80,000 seater stadiums.
Agreed. Duran seriously thought about retiring after "no mas". Don King pulled the plug on promoting him again, and it wasn't until Bob Arum showed faith in him that his career got back on track. The Cuevas victory was the real breakthrough fight in Duran's redemption after New Orleans.

Duran's mindset was certianly not on a third fight when waived his hands saying "no mas, thats for sure.
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Old 08-31-2007, 10:49 AM   #48
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

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Originally Posted by young griffo
You can spot the Leonard haters a mile off can't you?

I love how in their petty little minds a shameful surrender by Duran can still get twisted into an example of Leonards general rotteness as a fighter and person.

If only they'd judge Duran under the same criteria but that's a sacred cow these wimps wouldn't be game to touch.
Shit yeah, they're fruit to spot mate. Sounds like you've got them pinned yourself too

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Old 08-31-2007, 11:45 AM   #49
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

Leonard doesn't get enough credit for beating Duran, and I'm a huge Duran fan but the fact is Leonard is 2-1 against Duran. Itís not his fault Duran was in poor shape the second time and Duran was coming of his win against Barkley the third time which was a huge win for him.
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:21 PM   #50
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

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Originally Posted by red cobra
I guess in the same way that Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali didn't really beat Sonny Liston?
This is a poor analogy. Clay was all over Liston in their first fight. He won almost every round and had Liston reeling. It was obvious that Liston was no match for Clay. In the rematch, Clay dropped him with a perfect counter right hand that Liston didn't even see coming. That punch was like a laser in its speed and accuracy. The fact that Liston retired with a busted shoulder the first time doesn't have any bearing on Clay's accomplishment. In my opinion, Liston definitely looked for a way out of a second beating in the rematch and you could see by Clay's reaction that he wasn't happy about that. In contrast, Leonard wasn't administering a beating to Duran in their rematch. In fact, in the round before Duran quit Leonard was ****ing off. The only thing that accomplished was a scoulding by Dundee who shamed Leonard for acting like a clown (Leonard was no Ali). Besides, Duran had beaten Leonard in the first fight. Liston never came close to beating Ali.
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:29 PM   #51
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

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Originally Posted by Minotauro
Leonard doesn't get enough credit for beating Duran, and I'm a huge Duran fan but the fact is Leonard is 2-1 against Duran. Itís not his fault Duran was in poor shape the second time and Duran was coming of his win against Barkley the third time which was a huge win for him.
If Leonard had outboxed Duran or knocked him out then he would be getting lots of credit. But we all saw the rematch and if we are honest we admit that Leonard wasn't doing anything special and Duran looked to be in poor health. It wasn't a great fight and Leonard didn't look impressive in it. And we now know from the horse's mouth that Leonard manipulated the whole affair outside the ring so that he could have some expectation of winning. The third match was god awful and is best forgotten completely for the sake of the reputation of the manly science. Run rabbit run doesn't deserve anybody's appreciation.Tigeredge's point remains important: On Leonard's record he has two wins over Duran, but neither of those wins are impressive. It's the loss to Duran on Leonard's record that is the more relevant for accessing Leonard's career, for it is that fight that allows observers to best gauge their respective abilities. Both came to fight. Leonard even thought he won (but since everybody is against him they took his title away and gave it to Duran).
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:36 PM   #52
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

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Originally Posted by apollack
When you get a guy to quit, you've beaten him.
The trick is knowing that you made him quit and not that he quit for some other reason. Sometimes it looks like a fighter makes another fighter quit by administering a serious beating to him or when he is completely outclassed. Look at Liston in his corner against Clay. He looks like a beaten man. There you can make a case that Ali made him quit. But I don't see anything in New Orleans that would lead me think that Leonard made Duran quit. Leonard wasn't administering a beating to Duran. He hadn't inflicted any injuries. He hadn't floored Duran or even wobbled him. Saying that Leonard made Duran quit in New Orleans is a conclusion with zero evidence. Honestly, it sounds just like something a fanboy would say.
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Old 08-31-2007, 02:03 PM   #53
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
This is a poor analogy. Clay was all over Liston in their first fight. He won almost every round and had Liston reeling. It was obvious that Liston was no match for Clay. In the rematch, Clay dropped him with a perfect counter right hand that Liston didn't even see coming. That punch was like a laser in its speed and accuracy. The fact that Liston retired with a busted shoulder the first time doesn't have any bearing on Clay's accomplishment. In my opinion, Liston definitely looked for a way out of a second beating in the rematch and you could see by Clay's reaction that he wasn't happy about that. In contrast, Leonard wasn't administering a beating to Duran in their rematch. In fact, in the round before Duran quit Leonard was ****ing off. The only thing that accomplished was a scoulding by Dundee who shamed Leonard for acting like a clown (Leonard was no Ali). Besides, Duran had beaten Leonard in the first fight. Liston never came close to beating Ali.
You miss the meaning of my analogy: I am referring to those fans who claim that Listoon wasn't "himself" for those 2 fights with Ali, whether he threw the fights for fear of the Muslims, the underworld, or for just suddenly "getting old", or whatever. You've read all the excuses some fans have made for Liston, whether they're fans of Liston, or just haters of Ali. So, to them, Ali NEVER defeated Liston. He had shady reasons for quitting in the first fight, he went down and quit in the second fight. You know, conspiracy theorists. So it's an appropriate analogy to use when referring to Leonard-Duran. But I'm of course being sarcastic, because Leonard WAS beating Duran in that rematch, and masterfully so, and caused him to quit out of frustration. In the third fight, Leonard clearly one that one too, I mean, come on now, he won a clear, unanimous decision over Duran, let's not be ridiculous.
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Old 08-31-2007, 06:25 PM   #54
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

JOEY ARCHER OTHER JOURNEY MEN PRO'S BEAT SUGAR RAY ROBINSON. AS JOEY ARCHER SAID HE BEAT A MAN CALLED RAY ROBINSON. HE NEVER BEAT THE SUGAR RAY ROBINSON THAT ACHIEVED IMMORTALITY

SAME APPLIES TO DANNY WILLIAMS AND KEVIN MCBRIDE. THEY BEAT A MAN CALLED MIKE TYSON. NOT THE IMMORTALLY GREAT BOXER OF 1980'S NAMED MIKE TYSON

same applies to sugar ray with duran
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Old 08-31-2007, 06:26 PM   #55
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
If Leonard had outboxed Duran or knocked him out then he would be getting lots of credit. But we all saw the rematch and if we are honest we admit that Leonard wasn't doing anything special and Duran looked to be in poor health. It wasn't a great fight and Leonard didn't look impressive in it. And we now know from the horse's mouth that Leonard manipulated the whole affair outside the ring so that he could have some expectation of winning. The third match was god awful and is best forgotten completely for the sake of the reputation of the manly science. Run rabbit run doesn't deserve anybody's appreciation.Tigeredge's point remains important: On Leonard's record he has two wins over Duran, but neither of those wins are impressive. It's the loss to Duran on Leonard's record that is the more relevant for accessing Leonard's career, for it is that fight that allows observers to best gauge their respective abilities. Both came to fight. Leonard even thought he won (but since everybody is against him they took his title away and gave it to Duran).
i agree. ray could of beat that duran in new orleans without the clowning. that's how badly out of shape duran was
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Old 08-31-2007, 06:29 PM   #56
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Let's say, Leonard walks off in Round 8 of the first fight, because he's fallen behind on points. Does that count as a Duran win?
yes cos he made a great young fighter quit. what i am saying is sugar ray never beat the great fighter that was roberto duran. roberto was a shell of himself. he nearly beat him in june 1980

i know that the record says he beat duran twice
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:02 PM   #57
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by TIGEREDGE
JOEY ARCHER OTHER JOURNEY MEN PRO'S BEAT SUGAR RAY ROBINSON. AS JOEY ARCHER SAID HE BEAT A MAN CALLED RAY ROBINSON. HE NEVER BEAT THE SUGAR RAY ROBINSON THAT ACHIEVED IMMORTALITY

SAME APPLIES TO DANNY WILLIAMS AND KEVIN MCBRIDE. THEY BEAT A MAN CALLED MIKE TYSON. NOT THE IMMORTALLY GREAT BOXER OF 1980'S NAMED MIKE TYSON

same applies to sugar ray with duran
RAY LEONARD BEAT A ROBERTO DURAN THAT HAD IN TURN BEAT HIMSELF JUST 5 MONTHS EARLIER SO IT'S NOT AS IF HE AGED OVERNIGHT. HE ALSO WON TITLES MANY YEARS LATER. LETS NOT PRETEND THIS WAS OLD AND DYING DURAN. EVEN IN THE REMATCH DURAN HAD JUST BEATEN BARKLEY AND FINALLY HAD HIS CHANCE AT REVENGE ON THE GUY THAT HAD LED HIM TO HUMILATE HIMSELF ALL THOSE YEARS AGO.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:04 PM   #58
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

You write big when you are mad.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:32 PM   #59
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

All said and done, Duran was a Pro and should have come in ready in top condition for the 2nd fight. If not he should have delayed it, he's a grown man and he had what Leonard wanted. Guess he thought he had Ray Physced out after the first fight.

Regardless It was Duran's responsibility to show ready to go. He may have lost anyway, but we will never know.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:46 PM   #60
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Never Really Beat Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
You write big when you are mad.
Actually not at all, i'm just showing him how rude and annoying caps are

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