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Old 05-23-2009, 07:53 PM   #1
ChrisPontius
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Default How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Whether you think that's Monzon, Hagler, Greb, Jones, Robinson, an early version of Tunney, Kessler, Calzaghe, Walker, etc; take your pick. How does it go? 15 rounds.



We already know he beat Langford* and Ketchel fairly easily. However, while the talent of these men cannot be doubted, they fought in an era when boxing was still in a transitional period of bare knuckle style to gloved, and it showed. How would the more modern great middleweights do?



* In Langford's defence, he was only 154lbs for this bout, but Johnson at 180lbs was not at his optimum weight yet either.
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Old 05-23-2009, 08:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Off the top of my head I do think Tunney beats Johnson.
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Old 05-23-2009, 08:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

15 rounds is a long, long time to be in their with Johnson. Over the ten round distance someone like Conn might be real trouble for him but imagine the price Johnson exacts when he corners these smaller men.

None, I guess, would beat him over the longer distance.
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Old 05-23-2009, 09:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

I can't see any of these dudes having much of a chance against Johnson...........

I can picture Gene Tunney jabbing and circling, but also not scoring all that much....... Johnson too good at defense / parrying punches........

Same goes for prime-time Royal Jones, too.... Jones lands one or two punches at a time, but misses punches three and four....... Johnson much stronger than Jones, pushes Jones all around, when Jones ain't running his ass off from Johnson.........

Jack Johnson is pretty goddamn solid..........

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Old 05-23-2009, 09:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

how bout Johnson verus Holyfield or Spinks
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Old 05-23-2009, 09:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

I see him slaughtering most of them. He was one of the strongest heavyweights ever and overpowered the likes of Jim Jeffries. He loved to work inside and really, what would anyone of them do if he wanted to get on the inside against them and manhandle them?
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Old 05-24-2009, 05:47 AM   #7
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
15 rounds is a long, long time to be in their with Johnson. Over the ten round distance someone like Conn might be real trouble for him but imagine the price Johnson exacts when he corners these smaller men.

None, I guess, would beat him over the longer distance.
How competitive do you see them being?

For instance, i don't have the full fight (i doubt anyone does), but the rounds of Johnson vs Ketchel i've seen are pretty one-sided. Then there's that mysterious knockdown, of course, and the possibility that it was not on the level.
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Old 05-24-2009, 05:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

i really dont think that Monzon or Hagler would stand a shot given that they never stepped out of their weight. With Greb its impossible to tell due to no film available
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Old 05-24-2009, 06:02 AM   #9
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Whether you think that's Monzon, Hagler, Greb, Jones, Robinson, an early version of Tunney, Kessler, Calzaghe, Walker, etc; take your pick. How does it go? 15 rounds.



We already know he beat Langford* and Ketchel fairly easily. However, while the talent of these men cannot be doubted, they fought in an era when boxing was still in a transitional period of bare knuckle style to gloved, and it showed. How would the more modern great middleweights do?



* In Langford's defence, he was only 154lbs for this bout, but Johnson at 180lbs was not at his optimum weight yet either.
Langford weighed 156 to Johnsons 185.
It might be more interestring to ponder how that Langford ,who had engaged in 56 fights would have done against the men you mention?
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Old 05-24-2009, 01:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Whether you think that's Monzon, Hagler, Greb, Jones, Robinson, an early version of Tunney, Kessler, Calzaghe, Walker, etc; take your pick. How does it go? 15 rounds.


We already know he beat Langford* and Ketchel fairly easly However, while the talent of these men cannot be doubted, they fought in an era when boxing was still in a transitional period of bare knuckle style to gloved, and it showed. How would the more modern great middleweights do?

* In Langford's defence, he was only 154lbs for this bout, but Johnson at 180lbs was not at his optimum weight yet either.

Langford was not only light, and fighting a heavyweight, he was also much shorter. It is still debatable if Langford knocked Johnson down, as Ketchel did. I would also throw Choynski's name into the mix, who KO'd Johnson. On the surface it appears that the hard punching middles to supper middles could score a Kd or even a Knock out. But none of the names you listed were really big punchers. They were mostly very good boxers.

A key fight to look at is the O'Brien fight. O'Brien was a skilled boxer mover, and could out fight. Fight reports indicate that O'Brien who was likely past his best in 1909 was the better in a six round affair.

It is fair to say that Jack Johnson was 1-1-1 vs Choynski, Ketchel and O'Brien. Losing to a supper middle and getting out boxed one should be viewed objectively, and pretty much DQ Johnson from rating anywhere in the top ten in a head to head sense at heavyweight, but that is another thread.

The topic of the thread is how would Tunney, Jones, Clazaghe, Greb, Monzon, and Walker do vs Johnson.

I think Tunney would out point Johnson. Clazaghe and Roy Jones would also have a good chance.

I think Monzon, Kessler, Walker were not fast or strong enough, and its tough to give up speed, size, and strength. I think Johnson would defeat them, though I would esxpect Monzon to have his share of positive moments in the fight.

Robinson and Greb were very fast, but they were too small, and would lack power at heavyweight.
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Old 05-24-2009, 01:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Mendoza, Greb was more proven than any of those (outside of Jones perhaps) against guys of 170-180lbs, how can you just dismiss him as "too small"?
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Old 05-24-2009, 02:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt View Post
i really dont think that Monzon or Hagler would stand a shot given that they never stepped out of their weight. With Greb its impossible to tell due to no film available

I hear dat, dude...........

However, with Harold Greb, I have read a lot and looked over his pro record..... That guy was active and he liked to fight.... Plus, for a middleweight, he had huge biceps for the 1920s.......

Though Greb was wild and crazy who was also vunerable to counter shots, due to a poor attitude of defense.... This is what I have read and studied on "Grebbermeister." ALSO! Greb was not a wicked puncher..... Lotsa' fights went the distance.....

I gotta' assume Jack Johnson hammers Greb to the floor inside of 15 rds........

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Old 05-24-2009, 04:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Mickey Walker gave a good account of himself against top heavyweights and may have given Johnson a good fight, but not beat him.

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Old 05-24-2009, 04:31 PM   #14
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Mendoza, Greb was more proven than any of those (outside of Jones perhaps) against guys of 170-180lbs, how can you just dismiss him as "too small"?
My reason is two fold.

Greb was about 5'9", which is short. But it is not only height here. I think Greb is at a style disadvantage here as well.

Greb's style was to in-fight a lot. Johnson was a very good clincher vs supper middle weight types, and had a nice uppercut.

When you tally it all up, Greb is at a disadvantage in style, size, and strength here.

I think the super middle weight types that could be Johnson were the speedy boxers who preferred to jab, move and out fight, or the bigger puncher types. Greb really does not fit either mold. I think Greb would have to out work Johnson, which is possible, but again based on Greb's style Johnson might put the clamps on him.
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Old 05-24-2009, 04:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Mendoza you feeling ok your picking Johnson to win a fight
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