How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

[Longhhorn71]

Prime Jack Johnson is about the same size of Sonny Liston. (210 lbs)

Plus he can box, has a great defense, has power and a "kick-ass attitude".

He would just beat up any little guy moving up from 160-168 lbs.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by GPater11093

Mendoza you feeling ok your picking Johnson to win a fight

I'm a realist and my picks are chiefly based on what I think would happen. If the match up is in Johnson's favor, I'll pick him and explain why.

I have seen all the films on Johnson. His defense is greatly over rated. He gets tagged and out boxed from the outside. I still think Johnson's best stuff is on the inside, where he could use his clinching, uppercuts, short arms, and brute strength to his advantage.

I watched 20 rounds of a slightly past his prime Johnson vs a medium level contender in Frank Moran. Moran was the better on the outside, and was barely edged on my card. Fight reports say O'Brien's had no trouble landing his fast jab on Johnson and was the better by a shade in their 6 round match. And Battling Jim Johnson landed plenty too, and was in fact robbed into a draw. Even Willard who really was not terribly skilled landed plenty from the outside. Where is this great defense???

I believe Johnson's defense was only half complete. He had good punch anticipation, good glove blocking, and quick reflexes, but he was too stationary with his feet, and had a low guard. He also liked to lean back a lot, which works if you have a few inches on a guy ( like he had on Burns, Ketchel or Langford ), but at 6'1" really won't work well on a guys close to his size or bigger.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Longhhorn71

Prime Jack Johnson is about the same size of Sonny Liston. (210 lbs)

Plus he can box, has a great defense, has power and a "kick-ass attitude".

He would just beat up any little guy moving up from 160-168 lbs.

Liston was much more impressive from a tale of the tape standpoint.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

I'm a realist and my picks are chiefly based on what I think would happen. If the match up is in Johnson's favor, I'll pick him and explain why.

I have seen all the films on Johnson. His defense is greatly over rated. He gets tagged and out boxed from the outside. I still think Johnson's best stuff is on the inside, where he could use his clinching, uppercuts, short arms, and brute strength to his advantage.

I watched 20 rounds of a slightly past his prime Johnson vs a medium level contender in Frank Moran. Moran was the better on the outside, and was barely edged on my card. Fight reports say O'Brien's had no trouble landing his fast jab on Johnson and was the better by a shade in their 6 round match. And Battling Jim Johnson landed plenty too, and was in fact robbed into a draw. Even Willard who really was not terribly skilled landed plenty from the outside. Where is this great defense???

I believe Johnson's defense was only half complete. He had good punch anticipation, good glove blocking, and quick reflexes, but he was too stationary with his feet, and had a low guard. He also liked to lean back a lot, which works if you have a few inches on a guy ( like he had on Burns, Ketchel or Langford ), but at 6'1" really won't work well on a guys close to his size or bigger.

Johnson weighed 225lbs for the Moran fight he was 17bs above his best weight.Johnson was 37 when he fought Willard.Johnson broke his left arm against Jim Johnson ,,wonder why you did not mention these facts?

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

How competitive do you see them being?.

Not very.

Johnson was famous for bullying the small heavyweights he fought. And he hurt people. That mauling, clinching style, the uppercut, the strength advantage, he was a hugely strong human being, I think it's a horrific match up for smaller men to be honest. I understand why you've made the thread, but just because smaller guys hung around against him doesn't, in my honest opinion, make them more likely to beat Johnson than Tyson (who blasts them out). I know that is a little contradictory given that a live opponent is more dangerous than an unconcsious one, but as well as his style advantage, we've seen Johnson absorb a punch from the biggest hitter around that weight on film (possibly) in Ketchel and maybe the biggest hitter around that weight not on film (possibly) in Langford and carry on regardless.

That's why I mentioned Conn. Expert judge of range, very quick, fast hands, punches in points-gathering combinations, great general - but the toll that will be exacted when he is cornered is sapping to belief, stamina and durablity. Conn has all of these, but over 15 he gets bashed up, badly.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by GPater11093

Mendoza you feeling ok your picking Johnson to win a fight

[dmt]

Originally Posted by GPater11093

Mendoza you feeling ok your picking Johnson to win a fight

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by dmt

Mendoza is famously objective and impartial when discussing Jack Johnson.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Johnson weighed 225lbs for the Moran fight he was 17bs above his best weight.Johnson was 37 when he fought Willard.Johnson broke his left arm against Jim Johnson ,,wonder why you did not mention these facts?

And Moran would not be a top 20 heavyweight today. Johnson was a little heavy ( 15 pounds over his prime weight by your standards ) , but had enough stamina to go 20. Face it, Johnson's skills vs a fringe contender were just enough.

Jim " battling Johnson " beat up Jack Johnson. He won more rounds, and had Johnson nearly out when Jack Johnson quit. The Cyber Boxing Zone reports it was a 20 round fight, not 10. The decision somehow was a draw even though one judge had Battling Jim in the lead, and the other two had no comment! If there was any justice Jim battling Johnson is the new champ via TKO. At the very least Jack Johnson could have given Jim a rematch to clear his good name, but he didn't. In fact the nation of France wanted to strip Johnson as champion, and give the belt to the winner of Langford vs Jeanette.

Back to the point of this thread. How does Johnson do vs the best middles or supper middles. It is fact that Jack Johnson was 1-1-1 vs middle to supper middles in Choynski, Ketchel, and O'Brien. In these three fights the great Jack Jonson was knocked out by one man, suffered a knocked down by the other, and , jabbed by the other.

How do you like those facts, Mcvey?

I have fight reports if you want to read them.

[SuzieQ49]

Face it, Johnson's skills vs a fringe contender were just enough

Denver Ed Martin, Sam Langford, Sam McVea, and Joe Jeanette were more than just fringe contenders and Jack Johnson went a combined 10-1 against these men.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Whether you think that's Monzon, Hagler, Greb, Jones, Robinson, an early version of Tunney, Kessler, Calzaghe, Walker, etc; take your pick. How does it go? 15 rounds.

Tough match-ups for the little guys here. Johnson was comparatively much stronger, though I do not think he comes close to modern heavies in that department.

Jones, Robinson and Tunney I would pick quite easily over Johnson.

The rest I would favor Johnson with Calzaghe and Hagler having the best chances.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Tough match-ups for the little guys here. Johnson was comparatively much stronger, though I do not think he comes close to modern heavies in that department.

It is probably safe to say that Johnson was one of the strongest if not the strongest heavyweights under 210 lbs of all time.

[SuzieQ49]

It is probably safe to say that Johnson was one of the strongest if not the strongest heavyweights under 210 lbs of all time.

Agreed. Calzaghe would get tossed around like a ragdoll in the clinches and knocked out

[Rock0052]

If we're talking prime Johnson, I don't see any of them winning. If we're talking about a green Johnson (Not like the Jolly Green Giant), then it'd get interesting. No idea who the one would be to win, but Tunney would be at the top of my list to take care of a still-learning and not entirely physically developed JJ.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by janitor

It is probably safe to say that Johnson was one of the strongest if not the strongest heavyweights under 210 lbs of all time.

Because he pushed around middleweights, alcoholics and washed up ex-fat men?