Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-25-2009, 05:59 PM   #31
Rico Spadafora
Best Chin On ESB
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 17,330
vCash: 1158
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

It would take someone with stamina and a Chin. Johnson held and grappled just like Ruiz does today that could really wear a smaller guy out over 15 rounds.

I say maybe Billy Conn and Gene Tunney. I know Jake LaMotta could last the 15 but his face would probably look like a mess.
Rico Spadafora is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 05-25-2009, 07:39 PM   #32
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,286
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Spadafora View Post
It would take someone with stamina and a Chin. Johnson held and grappled just like Ruiz does today that could really wear a smaller guy out over 15 rounds.

I say maybe Billy Conn and Gene Tunney. I know Jake LaMotta could last the 15 but his face would probably look like a mess.
Conn is an interesting point as he was under 170 pounds when he gave Joe Louis all he could handle.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 09:23 PM   #33
SuzieQ49
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Boston
Posts: 13,490
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:

Because he pushed around middleweights, alcoholics and washed up ex-fat men?

or the fact he dominated Sam Mcvea, who was coming off a knockout victory over top contender denver ed martin?


or winning a wide 15 round decision over a 26 year old joe jenette after jenette had made sam langford quit in 8 rounds?

or dominating, dropping, outclassing sam langford in 1906 right after sam langford decisioned a 27 year old joe jeanette..... making sam claim the only time he was ever licked was against jack johnson.

How about Jack Johnson dominating 6'6 Denver Ed Martin, when Martin was colored heavyweight champion and had been gauranteed a shot at the winner of jeffries-fitz II for the crown??

or dominating one of the best white heavyweights in the world top contender Al Kaufman, who was coming off some huge wins.

these men certainly dont fit the above descriptions
SuzieQ49 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 09:31 PM   #34
SuzieQ49
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Boston
Posts: 13,490
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Because he pushed around middleweights, alcoholics and washed up ex-fat men?
Who exactley did Gene Tunney Push around? White Clowns, Washed up greats, or super middleweights. Your so high on Tunney. Lets hear it.
SuzieQ49 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 10:31 PM   #35
Axl_Nose
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 824
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

As i have Jack Johnson at number 3 in my all time Heavyweight list then i would give absolutely nobody at 160 - 168 a chance against him ..
The mythology surrounding Greb might lead some people to think he would have a chance but not for me, Greb was a unique, sensational fighter but Johnson is far too big and skilled for a guy that is a natural 160 fighter ..
Tunney beat Greb 4 times, Loughran beat Greb and i'd give Tunney and Loughran no chance in beating Johnson ..
For the record i'd give Dempsey and Marciano no chance in beating Johnson either .. To beat Johnson would take Ali or Holmes ....
Axl_Nose is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 10:50 PM   #36
Axl_Nose
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 824
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Who exactley did Gene Tunney Push around? White Clowns, Washed up greats, or super middleweights. Your so high on Tunney. Lets hear it.
SuzieQ i think your a little harsh on Tunney .. He was a sensational 'thinking' fighter. Your right though, i cant think of any occasion when he 'pushed around' a fighter ..

Im quite a fan of Tunney to be honest because more often than not he is denigrated by boxing fans who love to eulogise about Jack Dempsey, i think thats a shame. Dempsey is such an icon that a lot of people want to rip apart the man who beat him ..
Dempsey is such an inferior fighter to Tunney, Johnson, Ali, Louis and Holmes to me . But i am endlessly fascinated in the way people are driven wild by guys like Tyson and Dempsey .. The dreamy mythology surrounding Dempsey and Tyson will never die even though both guys shouldnt ever be rated in the top 7 Heavys of all time ....

I would honestly take an early '90s Holyfield to beat any version of Dempsey, Tyson and Marciano .. He had trouble with Bowe because Bowe at that point was an ultra offensive, highly skilled fighter who had height and reach advantage .. Holyfield's skills, forward rhytm and slick combinations would take Dempsey, Rocky and Tyson for me ..

I realise that will be a totally unpopular opinion in here, knowing the kind of religious fervour there is for Marciano and Dempsey in Eastside 'Classic' .. But Holyfield should never be dismissed against guys that are of similar size ....
Axl_Nose is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 11:00 PM   #37
Axl_Nose
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 824
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

When i say Holyfield would take Tyson im talking of an '87 Tyson who many boxing fans believe to be indestructible .. I am fully aware Holy beat Tyson but the Tyson acolytes like to make endless excuses for him being defeated in '96 .... I think Holy would have taken a '87 Tyson ..
Axl_Nose is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 11:57 PM   #38
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,388
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
or the fact he dominated Sam Mcvea, who was coming off a knockout victory over top contender denver ed martin?


or winning a wide 15 round decision over a 26 year old joe jenette after jenette had made sam langford quit in 8 rounds?

or dominating, dropping, outclassing sam langford in 1906 right after sam langford decisioned a 27 year old joe jeanette..... making sam claim the only time he was ever licked was against jack johnson.

How about Jack Johnson dominating 6'6 Denver Ed Martin, when Martin was colored heavyweight champion and had been gauranteed a shot at the winner of jeffries-fitz II for the crown??

or dominating one of the best white heavyweights in the world top contender Al Kaufman, who was coming off some huge wins.

these men certainly dont fit the above descriptions
mcvea was average, even langford alluded to this fact. A retreating fighter with one punch.

Joe Jeanette? Wasn't that the .500 fighter that ol' Arthur fought? I'm so impressed.

Ed Martin was big, no doubt, but not accomplished. Who was his greatest pelt? The aforementioned mediocre McVea? Sandy Ferguson? Victor MacClagen? At least he won an Academy Award.

Mediocrity does not gain splendor by sharing class with the same.

And what do any of these underwhelming victories have anything to do with him being "strong", the point of my retort?
Seamus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 08:18 AM   #39
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,286
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
mcvea was average, even langford alluded to this fact. A retreating fighter with one punch.

Joe Jeanette? Wasn't that the .500 fighter that ol' Arthur fought? I'm so impressed.

Ed Martin was big, no doubt, but not accomplished. Who was his greatest pelt? The aforementioned mediocre McVea? Sandy Ferguson? Victor MacClagen? At least he won an Academy Award.

Mediocrity does not gain splendor by sharing class with the same.

And what do any of these underwhelming victories have anything to do with him being "strong", the point of my retort?
Seamus,

The teenaged Sam Mcvey, and the novice ( .500 fighter ) Jeanette that Johnson defeated does not belong in this conversation as both men were well over 168 pounds.

I would like to hear a retort on Johnson being 1-1-1 vs Choynski, Ketchel, and O'Brien. One knocked him out, another knocked him down, and the other got the better of him ( according to news reports ) in a 6 round contest.

While Choynski, Ketchel and O'Brein were top 160-168 pound fighters, they also prove that Johnson was in fact vulnerable to boxers weighing from 160-168 pounds despite having a good 20-30+ pounds on them. If they could do this to Johnson, then might the best 160-168 pound fighters in history also have a similar chance of doing well?
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 08:40 AM   #40
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,238
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axl_Nose View Post
SuzieQ i think your a little harsh on Tunney .. He was a sensational 'thinking' fighter. Your right though, i cant think of any occasion when he 'pushed around' a fighter ..

Im quite a fan of Tunney to be honest because more often than not he is denigrated by boxing fans who love to eulogise about Jack Dempsey, i think thats a shame. Dempsey is such an icon that a lot of people want to rip apart the man who beat him ..
Dempsey is such an inferior fighter to Tunney, Johnson, Ali, Louis and Holmes to me . But i am endlessly fascinated in the way people are driven wild by guys like Tyson and Dempsey .. The dreamy mythology surrounding Dempsey and Tyson will never die even though both guys shouldnt ever be rated in the top 7 Heavys of all time ....

I would honestly take an early '90s Holyfield to beat any version of Dempsey, Tyson and Marciano .. He had trouble with Bowe because Bowe at that point was an ultra offensive, highly skilled fighter who had height and reach advantage .. Holyfield's skills, forward rhytm and slick combinations would take Dempsey, Rocky and Tyson for me ..

I realise that will be a totally unpopular opinion in here, knowing the kind of religious fervour there is for Marciano and Dempsey in Eastside 'Classic' .. But Holyfield should never be dismissed against guys that are of similar size ....
I think there's some sense to this post. But I also understand Suzie's disregard for a fighter that shamelessly ducked anything black. I do agree that Dempsey even on this forum gets ridicolously overrated and mythologized by some, but the views on Tyson are more moderate.

Prime Holyfield would not be an easy task for anyone. The thing with him is that you never know if he opts to fight with his head up his arse, though. But when he fought the right fight tactically he was hell for anyone.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 09:17 AM   #41
flamengo
Coool as a Cucumber.
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Have removed the 20a87 troll virus 'coz it sux cocks.
Posts: 5,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Spadafora View Post
It would take someone with stamina and a Chin. Johnson held and grappled just like Ruiz does today that could really wear a smaller guy out over 15 rounds.

I say maybe Billy Conn and Gene Tunney. I know Jake LaMotta could last the 15 but his face would probably look like a mess.
Tommy Burns looked fine after 14 rounds with Johnson... Ketchel lost a few teeth..

LaMotta would look fine after 15 rounds with Johnson.. Jack never threw a massive number of punches per round..
flamengo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 09:19 AM   #42
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,416
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
mcvea was average, even langford alluded to this fact. A retreating fighter with one punch.
What punch were you thinking?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 09:25 AM   #43
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,286
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
What punch were you thinking?
Off topic, Sam Mcvey was a 1 handed power hitter, with his money punch being the left hook. Sam Langford said Mcvey could not jab because he was bow armed, and backed up a lot.

While it is dangerous to use one film, Mcvey does a lot of retreating in his filmed fight vs Jim Battling Johnson.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 09:44 AM   #44
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,284
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Seamus,

The teenaged Sam Mcvey, and the novice ( .500 fighter ) Jeanette that Johnson defeated does not belong in this conversation as both men were well over 168 pounds.

I would like to hear a retort on Johnson being 1-1-1 vs Choynski, Ketchel, and O'Brien. One knocked him out, another knocked him down, and the other got the better of him ( according to news reports ) in a 6 round contest.

While Choynski, Ketchel and O'Brein were top 160-168 pound fighters, they also prove that Johnson was in fact vulnerable to boxers weighing from 160-168 pounds despite having a good 20-30+ pounds on them. If they could do this to Johnson, then might the best 160-168 pound fighters in history also have a similar chance of doing well?
I notice that you talk of the novice Jeanette,but forget to say that Johnson was in having his 8th fight when he fought Choynsky who was in his 65th.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 09:45 AM   #45
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,284
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
or the fact he dominated Sam Mcvea, who was coming off a knockout victory over top contender denver ed martin?


or winning a wide 15 round decision over a 26 year old joe jenette after jenette had made sam langford quit in 8 rounds?

or dominating, dropping, outclassing sam langford in 1906 right after sam langford decisioned a 27 year old joe jeanette..... making sam claim the only time he was ever licked was against jack johnson.

How about Jack Johnson dominating 6'6 Denver Ed Martin, when Martin was colored heavyweight champion and had been gauranteed a shot at the winner of jeffries-fitz II for the crown??

or dominating one of the best white heavyweights in the world top contender Al Kaufman, who was coming off some huge wins.

these men certainly dont fit the above descriptions
It's official ,Johnson only fought midgets.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013