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Old 05-26-2009, 10:00 AM   #46
Seamus
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
I notice that you talk of the novice Jeanette,but forget to say that Johnson was in having his 8th fight when he fought Choynsky who was in his 65th.
Those were different times. It was a different sport. Guys were thrown to the wolves and had to learn the trade the hard way/ I understand this.

Johnson was no bum, just over-rated.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:03 AM   #47
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Off topic, Sam Mcvey was a 1 handed power hitter, with his money punch being the left hook. Sam Langford said Mcvey could not jab because he was bow armed, and backed up a lot.

While it is dangerous to use one film, Mcvey does a lot of retreating in his filmed fight vs Jim Battling Johnson.

Every single newspaper account i've come across has McVey giving Langford trouble with the jab, including the controviersial win - which was controversial, because European judges were seen as being too fond of the jab, which McVey employed throughout the fight.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:17 PM   #48
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Dwight Muhammad Qawi would smash him to bits.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:26 PM   #49
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

I have never understood why Johnson is given credit for beating a bunch of smaller fighters than him. In the case of significance he is probably #1 in Heavyweight History but as far as him being listed in anyones All Time Heavyweight top ten I don't see how. Why is he given so much credit for beating Jeffries who was out of the ring for 6 years and had to lose 100 pounds for the fight?

Johnson's era was crap and his record is littered with draws and no contests.

It just seems as if Johnson is for some reason held to a different standard than other fighters he is excused for his losses and fighting much smaller guys while others are not.
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Old 05-26-2009, 01:51 PM   #50
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
I notice that you talk of the novice Jeanette,but forget to say that Johnson was in having his 8th fight when he fought Choynsky who was in his 65th.
Jack Johnson only had 8th fighs under his belt when he meet Choynski? Who says this? The truth is more like like 25+.

Here's is Johnson's known fights before he meet Choynski. Count them if you wish:

1894
John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16 -Some sources report "KO 15"Undated (circa 1894-95)

Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W

1895Apr 11 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899

1896 Cherokee Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W

1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4

Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 10

1898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4

Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 15


1899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7

Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF

7May 6 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Chicago, Il LT KO

4Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D12


1900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 15

Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15

Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15

Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7

May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7

Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jun 25 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00Oct

George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO 10

Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12

Dec 27 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00

1901Feb 25 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fightMar 22 –Johnson and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] were released from jail after each posted a $1,000 bond

And your link: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 05-26-2009, 02:53 PM   #51
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Johnson is what 6' 200 lbs? Very good athlete. He beats them.
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Old 05-26-2009, 03:38 PM   #52
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Jack Johnson only had 8th fighs under his belt when he meet Choynski? Who says this? The truth is more like like 25+.

Here's is Johnson's known fights before he meet Choynski. Count them if you wish:

1894
John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16 -Some sources report "KO 15"Undated (circa 1894-95)

Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W

1895Apr 11 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899

1896 Cherokee Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W

1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4

Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 10

1898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4

Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 15


1899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7

Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF

7May 6 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Chicago, Il LT KO

4Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D12


1900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 15

Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15

Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15

Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7

May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2

May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7

Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3

Jun 25 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00Oct

George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO 10

Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12

Dec 27 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00

1901Feb 25 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fightMar 22 –Johnson and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] were released from jail after each posted a $1,000 bond

And your link: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
You are right Mendoza ,I was forgetting these ,dont know why as they are in the Book" Jack Johnson In The Ring And Out",so thats 13 more wins for Johnson then,
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Old 05-26-2009, 03:49 PM   #53
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
mcvea was average, even langford alluded to this fact. A retreating fighter with one punch.
McVea might have been one dimensional but he and Johnson were seen as the two outstanding challengers for Jeffries title when they fought. He was probably the best 200 lb+ heavyweight available for Johnson to fight apart from Jeffries himself.

Quote:
Joe Jeanette? Wasn't that the .500 fighter that ol' Arthur fought? I'm so impressed.
Acording to boxrec at least.

Of course Jeff Clark was a .500 fighter on boxrec untill K Smioth researched his career properly and he was one of the best middleweights of the era.

Incidentaly Sam McVea had at least 15 fights before he met Johnson not 8 as boxrec implies.

Quote:
Ed Martin was big, no doubt, but not accomplished. Who was his greatest pelt? The aforementioned mediocre McVea? Sandy Ferguson? Victor MacClagen? At least he won an Academy Award.
Martin was the reigning coloured heavyweight champion and was being touted as the outstanding challenger for Jeffries title by some sections of the press. As with McVea he was probably the best 200 lb+ heavyweight available apart from Jeffries.

Sandy Ferguson was the Oleg Maskaev of his era. He was consistantly mismanaged and was not an elite talent but he could beat the best aroud on the day. He was seen as the heir aparent to Jeffries throne in some quaters untill he started fighting the black dynamite crew who the other to white contenders avoided. He did beat some of them however.

Quote:
Mediocrity does not gain splendor by sharing class with the same.

And what do any of these underwhelming victories have anything to do with him being "strong", the point of my retort?
I do not consider any of these wins underwhelming.

At the verry least they are on a par with Larry Holmses best win.

Above all they show that Jack Johnson did fight larger oponents and did not strugle with them stylisticaly.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:44 PM   #54
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

[quote=janitor;4122904]
Quote:


McVea might have been one dimensional but he and Johnson were seen as the two outstanding challengers for Jeffries title when they fought. He was probably the best 200 lb+ heavyweight available for Johnson to fight apart from Jeffries himself.



Acording to boxrec at least.

Of course Jeff Clark was a .500 fighter on boxrec untill K Smioth researched his career properly and he was one of the best middleweights of the era.

Incidentaly Sam McVea had at least 15 fights before he met Johnson not 8 as boxrec implies.



Martin was the reigning coloured heavyweight champion and was being touted as the outstanding challenger for Jeffries title by some sections of the press. As with McVea he was probably the best 200 lb+ heavyweight available apart from Jeffries.

Sandy Ferguson was the Oleg Maskaev of his era. He was consistantly mismanaged and was not an elite talent but he could beat the best aroud on the day. He was seen as the heir aparent to Jeffries throne in some quaters untill he started fighting the black dynamite crew who the other to white contenders avoided. He did beat some of them however.



I do not consider any of these wins underwhelming.

At the verry least they are on a par with Larry Holmses best win.

Above all they show that Jack Johnson did fight larger oponents and did not strugle with them stylisticaly.
Since Mendoza joined in this thread, I think we can take it as a given that the purpose of it was to denigrate Johnson further,he quite rightly corrected my error in forgetting Cyberzones fights of Johnson's early career. And I ackowledged my mistake . I notice however , he did not include the short bio of Johnson above his record ,which evaluated him as "possibly the greatest heavyweight who ever fought,a master of defence, allmost impossible to hit cleanly, fast with an outstanding jab and uppercut,and allmost flawless in all other aspects of pugilism".
This opinion is totally at variance with Mendoza's , he would have you beleive that Johnson would be in imminent danger against any top middles and super middles.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:49 PM   #55
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post

since mendoza originated this thread, i think we can take it as a given that the purpose of it was to denigrate johnson further
ahum!

Last edited by ChrisPontius; 05-26-2009 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:58 PM   #56
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

[quote=ChrisPontius;4123290]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post

AHUM!
Sorry CP [actually its AHEM] well in the UK at least.
See edited post
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Old 05-26-2009, 05:00 PM   #57
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

No problem, mcvey.

That was your first Dutch lesson. It's a U. AHUM!!


p.s. although i'm not the biggest Johnson fan, this was a serious thread. I'll leave the slander for the Dempsey ones.
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Old 05-26-2009, 05:07 PM   #58
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
[actually its AHEM]
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Old 05-26-2009, 05:10 PM   #59
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
No problem, mcvey.

That was your first Dutch lesson. It's a U. AHUM!!


p.s. although i'm not the biggest Johnson fan, this was a serious thread. I'll leave the slander for the Dempsey ones.
I stand corrected by you twice in one thread then
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Old 05-27-2009, 08:45 AM   #60
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Default Re: How does Jack Johnson vs the best 160 or 168'er go?

[quote=mcvey;4123261]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post

Since Mendoza joined in this thread, I think we can take it as a given that the purpose of it was to denigrate Johnson further,he quite rightly corrected my error in forgetting Cyberzones fights of Johnson's early career. And I ackowledged my mistake . I notice however , he did not include the short bio of Johnson above his record ,which evaluated him as "possibly the greatest heavyweight who ever fought,a master of defence, allmost impossible to hit cleanly, fast with an outstanding jab and uppercut,and allmost flawless in all other aspects of pugilism".
This opinion is totally at variance with Mendoza's , he would have you beleive that Johnson would be in imminent danger against any top middles and super middles.
I think my purpose here to to engage in this thread. It seems your have too much of an agenda with Johnson. If I read wrong information I will try to correct it for the readers of the forum. It seems like you take it personal, then spin things in some sort of lame effort to undermine ring facts.

The truth is Johnson had 25+ fights under his belt, and was Kod in his home town by Choynski. To say Johnson was a novice here is wrong.

As for Johnson being in imminent danger vs top middles and supper middles I think Choynski proves it could happen. Ketchel also floored Johnson, and O'Brien out jabbed him. So yes--talented middles or supper middles could upset Johnson or make him look bad. The proof is in the pudding here, and we have three examples.
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