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Old 05-27-2009, 03:43 PM   #16
mattdonnellon
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
I personally think that both Ingo and Jack's resume have a bit more substance. Sharkey lost quite a few fights, but beat a better list of opponents in my opinion. Ingo was one of the few fighters who defeated every man he ever faced and that included prime versions of Machen and Patterson...
Agree fully with Magoo's opinion.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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I personally think that both Ingo and Jack's resume have a bit more substance. Sharkey lost quite a few fights, but beat a better list of opponents in my opinion. Ingo was one of the few fighters who defeated every man he ever faced and that included prime versions of Machen and Patterson...
Those are the only really top men Ingo fought, his resume is pretty thin imo.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:11 PM   #18
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Those are the only really top men Ingo fought, his resume is pretty thin imo.

Indeed, but those were two huge wins and extremely decisive at that. We should also acknowledge the fact that Ingo had but two losses to a man who he defeated. Also, for whatever its worth, Johansen never faced a man who had a losing record, not even in his early prospect days.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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On film Baer seems to lack a jab
He does display a good one late in the Schmeling bout, as they exchange heavy jabs
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, and effort. I often wonder if the Braddock fight was a fix.
I think it's more likely that Braddock-Baer was a fix than Sharkey-Carnera.

SuzyQ's critique largely reflects my own opinion. Maxie had phenomenal physical attributes. Good size, granite chin, and possibly the hardest punching of all the heavyweight champions. In addition to the jab he displayed against Schmeling, he demonstrated an underrated left hook against Louis, and nearly floored Galento with a deft defensive duck and counter right out of the corner. He showed good mobility against Carnera.

He did telegraph through much of his career (until Loughran tipped him off about it), and never recovered the competitive edge and dedication he possessed before Frankie Campbell. I've often wondered how the Max Baer of the Campbell fight would have done against Louis. (Somehow, I don't think he would have been looking for a soft spot to lie down on when Joe started returning fire.)

Ultimately, I feel that Max Baer was more potential than achievement. The best performance of his that I've viewed entirely was Schmeling, and as Suzy pointed out, that was Schmeling's worst performance on film. (Including the Louis rematch, where Herr Max kept getting back up. He actually turned his back to Baer though.) It would be revealing to see footage of Baer prior to the Campbell tragedy.

I agree with Suzy that Schmeling would likely have taken a rematch. Also, if Carnera did not indicate to the referee that he wanted to quit, then he likely would have lasted the distance, diminishing Baer's stock somewhat more, and making Baer-Carnera II a very marketable rematch. (How does it turn out if Primo has two good wheels under him throughout? Carnera was hospitalized with a bum ankle sustained in round one, yet Maxie couldn't keep him on the deck. Primo had a good record in rematches. Sharkey decked Carnera with a hellacious left hook in their first meeting, and decisioned him soundly, but Baer didn't have Sharkey's speed or skill.)

Are we to rate him on ability, or achievement?

Was his loss to Braddock the worst performance by a champion in heavyweight lineal history? Let me review Holyfield-Douglas, and get back to you on that.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
He does display a good one late in the Schmeling bout, as they exchange heavy jabsI think it's more likely that Braddock-Baer was a fix than Sharkey-Carnera.

SuzyQ's critique largely reflects my own opinion. Maxie had phenomenal physical attributes. Good size, granite chin, and possibly the hardest punching of all the heavyweight champions. In addition to the jab he displayed against Schmeling, he demonstrated an underrated left hook against Louis, and nearly floored Galento with a deft defensive duck and counter right out of the corner. He showed good mobility against Carnera.

He did telegraph through much of his career (until Loughran tipped him off about it), and never recovered the competitive edge and dedication he possessed before Frankie Campbell. I've often wondered how the Max Baer of the Campbell fight would have done against Louis. (Somehow, I don't think he would have been looking for a soft spot to lie down on when Joe started returning fire.)

Ultimately, I feel that Max Baer was more potential than achievement. The best performance of his that I've viewed entirely was Schmeling, and as Suzy pointed out, that was Schmeling's worst performance on film. (Including the Louis rematch, where Herr Max kept getting back up. He actually turned his back to Baer though.) It would be revealing to see footage of Baer prior to the Campbell tragedy.

I agree with Suzy that Schmeling would likely have taken a rematch. Also, if Carnera did not indicate to the referee that he wanted to quit, then he likely would have lasted the distance, diminishing Baer's stock somewhat more, and making Baer-Carnera II a very marketable rematch. (How does it turn out if Primo has two good wheels under him throughout? Carnera was hospitalized with a bum ankle sustained in round one, yet Maxie couldn't keep him on the deck. Primo had a good record in rematches. Sharkey decked Carnera with a hellacious left hook in their first meeting, and decisioned him soundly, but Baer didn't have Sharkey's speed or skill.)

Are we to rate him on ability, or achievement?

Was his loss to Braddock the worst performance by a champion in heavyweight lineal history? Let me review Holyfield-Douglas, and get back to you on that.
but he never lasted the distance and quit in the fight
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Old 05-27-2009, 06:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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but he never lasted the distance and quit in the fight
Ironically, some magazine publications in the past have rated Carnera as having the biggest heart of any heavyweight champion, but I can't agree because of how Baer-Carnera ended. During the depths of the Great Depression, both Baer and Carnera simply surrendered the biggest prize in sports, while an arthritic and stale Jimmy Braddock had to get carried out on his sword and shield for Louis to pry it away. (For this reason alone, I rate Braddock over those circus performers, although Jimmy wasn't the fighting champion Primo was. Braddock was respectable to those struggling to make a living.)
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Old 05-27-2009, 07:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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Ironically, some magazine publications in the past have rated Carnera as having the biggest heart of any heavyweight champion, but I can't agree because of how Baer-Carnera ended. During the depths of the Great Depression, both Baer and Carnera simply surrendered the biggest prize in sports, while an arthritic and stale Jimmy Braddock had to get carried out on his sword and shield for Louis to pry it away. (For this reason alone, I rate Braddock over those circus performers, although Jimmy wasn't the fighting champion Primo was. Braddock was respectable to those struggling to make a living.)
I think you are perhaps underestimating the seriousness of Carneras injuries in that fight.

He was in a hospital bed for some time after the fight as I recall.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:06 AM   #23
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
He does display a good one late in the Schmeling bout, as they exchange heavy jabsI think it's more likely that Braddock-Baer was a fix than Sharkey-Carnera.

SuzyQ's critique largely reflects my own opinion. Maxie had phenomenal physical attributes. Good size, granite chin, and possibly the hardest punching of all the heavyweight champions. In addition to the jab he displayed against Schmeling, he demonstrated an underrated left hook against Louis, and nearly floored Galento with a deft defensive duck and counter right out of the corner. He showed good mobility against Carnera.

He did telegraph through much of his career (until Loughran tipped him off about it), and never recovered the competitive edge and dedication he possessed before Frankie Campbell. I've often wondered how the Max Baer of the Campbell fight would have done against Louis. (Somehow, I don't think he would have been looking for a soft spot to lie down on when Joe started returning fire.)

Ultimately, I feel that Max Baer was more potential than achievement. The best performance of his that I've viewed entirely was Schmeling, and as Suzy pointed out, that was Schmeling's worst performance on film. (Including the Louis rematch, where Herr Max kept getting back up. He actually turned his back to Baer though.) It would be revealing to see footage of Baer prior to the Campbell tragedy.

I agree with Suzy that Schmeling would likely have taken a rematch. Also, if Carnera did not indicate to the referee that he wanted to quit, then he likely would have lasted the distance, diminishing Baer's stock somewhat more, and making Baer-Carnera II a very marketable rematch. (How does it turn out if Primo has two good wheels under him throughout? Carnera was hospitalized with a bum ankle sustained in round one, yet Maxie couldn't keep him on the deck. Primo had a good record in rematches. Sharkey decked Carnera with a hellacious left hook in their first meeting, and decisioned him soundly, but Baer didn't have Sharkey's speed or skill.)

Are we to rate him on ability, or achievement?

Was his loss to Braddock the worst performance by a champion in heavyweight lineal history? Let me review Holyfield-Douglas, and get back to you on that.
The Braddock fight was straight, there was no late shift of odds, Baer was a heavy favourite.Baer's hands went on him during the fight, plus he had underestimated Braddock and trained accordingly.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:08 AM   #24
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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The Braddock fight was straight, there was no late shift of odds, Baer was a heavy favourite.Baer's hands went on him during the fight, plus he had underestimated Braddock and trained accordingly.

I have often heard this claim. What happened? Did Baer break both hands during the fight?
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Max Baer HW Ranking?

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I have often heard this claim. What happened? Did Baer break both hands during the fight?
Baer claimed that he broke his right hand in the first round and his left in the fourth.

Post fight xrays were put forward to suport this claim showing a fracture on the right and I believe bruising to the bone on the left.

It is of course possible that he injured his hands later in the fight than he claimed.
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