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View Poll Results: Can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?
I do rank Pacquiao over Chavez. 5 15.63%
It is valid/can be justified, though I'm not sure if I do. 19 59.38%
It can't be justified, Chavez has to be ranked higher. 5 15.63%
It's ludicrous/laughable. The two are incomparable, Chavez by light years. 0 0%
DINAMITA is a stupid Pactard and this thread is a waste of time! 3 9.38%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-24-2009, 10:27 PM   #1
DINAMITA
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Default Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

PLEASE HAVE A READ AND CONSIDER BEFORE YOU ANSWER:



CHAVEZ


Won titles at weight divisions: 3

Super-feather
Light
Light-welter


Top 5 wins (not in order):

Rosario at lightweight
Taylor at light-welter
Camacho at light-welter
Ramirez at light
Haugen at light-welter


Losses: 6, 4 by stoppage - and the Whitaker "draw"

This number is misleading, as the losses to Wiley, Grover and Tzsyu came when JCC was well past-it. Also, there is no shame in a past-prime Chavez losing twice to a prime De La Hoya, nor is there any in being comprehensively outboxed by the finest boxer of the last 20 years, Pernell Whitaker. The number of stoppages is also misleading, as Chavez had an iron chin and was never knocked out.

The only loss that counts against him in any serious way is Randall IMO.


______________________________________________________________


PACQUIAO

Won titles at weight divisions: 6

Fly
Super-bantam
Feather
Super-feather
Light
Light-welter


Top 5 wins (not in order):

Hatton at light-welter
Barrera at feather
Marquez at super-feather
Morales at super-feather
De La Hoya at welter (or another if you don't rate this win because of Oscar's weight-drainage: Barrera II or Morales III or Ledwaba or Sasakul)


Losses: 3, 2 by stoppage

One loss was to a journeyman. Pacquiao was a skinny 18-year-old. Another loss was to an unbeaten Thai fighter in Bangkok, and it was obvious Pacquiao was highly weight-drained considering he jumped THREE weight divisions for his next fight only THREE months later!

The only loss that counts against him in any serious way is Morales IMO.

______________________________________________________________



It can be argued that Pacquiao's weight-jumping achievements are significantly better.

It can be argued that Pacquiao's best wins are as good, if not better. Are Rosario, Camacho, Taylor and Ramirez really that much better than Marquez, Barrera, Morales and Hatton?



Now, before posts pop up which are more directed at me being a "Pactard" and a "nuthugger" and more about me than actually addressing the points raised in this post, please note:

I have not decided that Pacquiao deserves to be ranked over Chavez. A mate of mine merely put it to me today that he now does for the reasons above, so I thought I would post it in the Classic and see what comes back. I think it is a topic worthy of our consideration. I am chewing it over myself as I type this. I am a fan of Chavez, I love his fighting style, and although I think he is often pretty severely overrated on here, I try and not let that cloud my judgement, I'm looking forward to hearing both sides.

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Old 05-24-2009, 10:34 PM   #2
asero
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

the impact of chavez is so huge that he paved way for a lot of young mexican fighters in the 90s....i hope pacquiao could duplicate that
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

It can certainly be justified imo. As of now, I still would have Chavez just a spot or so higher, but Pac definitely belongs in the same range as JCC.
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:39 PM   #4
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the cobra View Post
It can certainly be justified imo. As of now, I still would have Chavez just a spot or so higher, but Pac definitely belongs in the same range as JCC.

they are in the same bracket along with jones and holy
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asero View Post
they are in the same bracket along with jones and holy
Yeah, I'd go along with that. Perhaps Hagler, Hearns and Hopkins could also be added to that 'tier'.
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asero View Post
the impact of chavez is so huge that he paved way for a lot of young mexican fighters in the 90s....i hope pacquiao could duplicate that
Fair enough, but this is a pretty leftfield and irrelevant comment mate. With reference to the question of the thread: can it be justified or not do you think?? And why?
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:47 PM   #7
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DINAMITA View Post
Yeah, I'd go along with that. Perhaps Hagler, Hearns and Hopkins could also be added to that 'tier'.

do you have hearns in your top 35...i can't squeeze hearns in my top 40...
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Old 05-24-2009, 11:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asero View Post
do you have hearns in your top 35...i can't squeeze hearns in my top 40...
I do have him top 40, not sure about 35, maybe. I hadn't thought about revising/updating my list from last year until today. I think I have been a bit too critical of Hearns in the past, and maybe underrated him a little.
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Old 05-25-2009, 06:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Pac needs to go undisputed at a weight now, no more picking on certain fighters. ` He needs to unify and dominate a division. If he does that, and i think he can, there is a high high P4P ranking ahead of him. But if he does not there will always be arguments that Bradley was the No1 LW at the time of Hattons fight. That Valero was avoided etc etc Chavez beat them all at 2 weights, he left no doubts and no arguments.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

How do folks see a match between them going? Seems 135-140 would be the weight.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:42 PM   #11
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Well its clear that Pac has achievements in more weight classes and has perhaps the slightly better top names to his resume. Those are the things that count in his favour.

On the negative side, there's the fact that a lot of Pac's top wins are against fighters who were clearly on the decline. Morales (especially in the third fight), de la Hoya and Barrera (in the second fight) were clearly shot. Hatton and Morales (in the second fight) had seen better days too imo. Of course Camacho and Haugen were on the wane when Chavez beat them too, it should not be forgotten.

I still think the Meldrick Taylor that Chavez beat is a better fighter than anyone Pac has beaten. Barrera and Morales are no doubt 'greater', but Meldrick in the form he showed against Chavez was on another level imo in terms of ability.

I also think Rocky Lockridge is a name that is forgotten on Chavez's ledger. I think he is at least as good as Juan Manuel Marquez if not outright better, and Chavez was able to clearly get the better of him, something I don't think Pac has done against Marquez, though I did have Pac taking the first encounter by a few points (had the second fight a draw).

In terms of resume depth, Chavez's is deeper at the minute. I think that's pretty uncontroversial.

If we are talking dominance, I think Chavez has been the more dominant fighter. He was run close a couple of times early in his career (Laporte, Lockridge) but I think Pac has struggled more against more average comp in his early days and even smack in the middle of his prime he has found obstacles in Morales and Marquez. I don't envision Chavez ever losing to Marquez or Morales level fighters in his prime. It's one thing to get outboxed by Pernell Whitaker, it's another thing to get outboxed by Morales and Marquez.

If we simply pick a weight where we think they are best at and compare them there on a h2h basis, I think I'd pick Chavez. He is simply the more well rounded fighter. Pac may do slightly better against boxer types but Chavez is more resilient to all styles imo including boxer punchers and outright punchers. I'm not convinced Pac can take the punishment needed to beat a lot of fighters with sturdy chins and good power. That Marquez had him all wobbly in the rematch is something to look at. A question mark has to be put on his chin. We may found out more about it in the future depending on who he fights.

Head to head between them, I'd take Chavez to beat Pac pretty comprehensively for the reason that Chavez can do everything Marquez does, but in most cases does things better, including body punching, defense and he has a better chin too.

So is it justifiable to rank Pac over Chavez? Right now I wouldn't say anyone was mad for doing so, but I also wouldn't go there myself.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Im somewhere in between option 2 & 3 so I just voted for option 2.

To say `it cant be justified` is a bit tough on Pac because of what he has achieved, he is an ATG for sure.

I believe it can be justified but I definitely dont rate Pac higher as I thought Chavez was the better fighter with fantastic achievements himself, a real old school quality technician with the will of a lion, solid & extremely accurate.

Pac is a fantastic fighter but Chavez was superior IMO.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DINAMITA View Post
Yeah, I'd go along with that. Perhaps Hagler, Hearns and Hopkins could also be added to that 'tier'.
I'd say that Pac can be compared to Chavez .. But to compare either of these 2 guys to Hearns, Hagler and Jones is a stretch for me .. You can put Hopkins in with Pac and Chavez ..

Hagler, Hearns and Jones are far superior than any of the other guys mentioned in my opinion
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:02 PM   #14
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
How do folks see a match between them going? Seems 135-140 would be the weight.
I think Duran and Pryor destroy Pac at 140. I think Duran destroys Chavez but i think Chavez could take Pryor ..
Styles make fights .. As a statistical record i think Pac can be compared to Pac but if there was a showdown between the 2 at 135 or 140 i'd go with Chavez ....

I'd go with Pernell to outbox Pac comfortably too
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Whether you agree or disagree, can ranking Pacquiao over Chavez be justified?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
Well its clear that Pac has achievements in more weight classes and has perhaps the slightly better top names to his resume. Those are the things that count in his favour.

On the negative side, there's the fact that a lot of Pac's top wins are against fighters who were clearly on the decline. Morales (especially in the third fight), de la Hoya and Barrera (in the second fight) were clearly shot. Hatton and Morales (in the second fight) had seen better days too imo. Of course Camacho and Haugen were on the wane when Chavez beat them too, it should not be forgotten.

I still think the Meldrick Taylor that Chavez beat is a better fighter than anyone Pac has beaten. Barrera and Morales are no doubt 'greater', but Meldrick in the form he showed against Chavez was on another level imo in terms of ability.

I also think Rocky Lockridge is a name that is forgotten on Chavez's ledger. I think he is at least as good as Juan Manuel Marquez if not outright better, and Chavez was able to clearly get the better of him, something I don't think Pac has done against Marquez, though I did have Pac taking the first encounter by a few points (had the second fight a draw).

In terms of resume depth, Chavez's is deeper at the minute. I think that's pretty uncontroversial.

If we are talking dominance, I think Chavez has been the more dominant fighter. He was run close a couple of times early in his career (Laporte, Lockridge) but I think Pac has struggled more against more average comp in his early days and even smack in the middle of his prime he has found obstacles in Morales and Marquez. I don't envision Chavez ever losing to Marquez or Morales level fighters in his prime. It's one thing to get outboxed by Pernell Whitaker, it's another thing to get outboxed by Morales and Marquez.

If we simply pick a weight where we think they are best at and compare them there on a h2h basis, I think I'd pick Chavez. He is simply the more well rounded fighter. Pac may do slightly better against boxer types but Chavez is more resilient to all styles imo including boxer punchers and outright punchers. I'm not convinced Pac can take the punishment needed to beat a lot of fighters with sturdy chins and good power. That Marquez had him all wobbly in the rematch is something to look at. A question mark has to be put on his chin. We may found out more about it in the future depending on who he fights.

Head to head between them, I'd take Chavez to beat Pac pretty comprehensively for the reason that Chavez can do everything Marquez does, but in most cases does things better, including body punching, defense and he has a better chin too.

So is it justifiable to rank Pac over Chavez? Right now I wouldn't say anyone was mad for doing so, but I also wouldn't go there myself.
Very good post

Ps. I scored JMM/Pac II for Marquez.
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