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Old 05-26-2009, 11:35 PM   #1
Russell
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Default Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

I've heard it said that Ketchel was a heavyweight killer, similar to other marvels of his day like Fitz, Langford and Walcott.

How does he fare against the right below or right over 200 pound heavyweights of the 40's through 60's?

Machen, Harold Johnson, Zora Folley, Archie Moore, Doug Jones, Karl Mildenberger.

Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Mac Foster, Ernie Terrell, Bonavena, Ali, Frazier, Foreman.

You get the idea.

Does he flourish against the smaller, yet more skilled earlier HW's?

Does he fail terribly as the heavyweights become larger?
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

I belive the only heavyweight he fought was Jack Johnson. And When Johnson decided to end it, he did it with one punch.

I dont see him beating ANY of the above guys. He might last the longest with Ali if Ali wants to play around.
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

Quote:
How does he fare against the right below or right over 200 pound heavyweights of the 40's through 60's?

Machen, Harold Johnson, Zora Folley, Archie Moore, Doug Jones, Karl Mildenberger.

Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Mac Foster, Ernie Terrell, Bonavena, Ali, Frazier, Foreman.

You get the idea.

Does he flourish against the smaller, yet more skilled earlier HW's?

I dont think any man weighing under 170lb would do well in some of the stronger heavyweights eras like the 50s-60s. I do think that Ketchel would do well in some of the weaker heavvyweight eras like 1900s 1910s 1920s 1930s where men like Fitzsimmons choynski harry greb and mickey walker were able to defeat many top heavyweight contenders.

So to Summarize, I think Ketchel does very well against the pre 1940s heavyweights, who didnt have modernized skills, kept there hands low, and didnt throw jabs or combinations for the most part. I would like to say I dont see Fitzsimmons with his very primitive bareknuckle style or 5'0 joe walcott doing well at all vs this 50s-60s crowd either....Langford would also have numerous problems. Sam on film did not have very good defense, and was wide open for a good left jab, he also possesed no head movement. Some modern boxers like a Zora Folley Eddie Machen or Ernie Terrell might pick him apart in this regard. Harry Greb never proved he could beat a big heavyweight puncher, imagine if we threw greb in the ring vs a 6'2 Elmer Ray or 6'3 210lb Lee Q Murray or 6'4 220lb Harry Bobo. But if Harry Greb and Mickey Walker and Bob Fitzsimmons could be heavyweight contenders in there eras, then I am sure Stanley could too. Heavyweight Boxing style changed by the 1950s...that is why you never saw another man weighing under 170lb become a heavyweight contender.

Quote:
I belive the only heavyweight he fought was Jack Johnson

Dan Porky Flynn. Ketchel knocked him out in 3 rounds, the fastest porky flynn would be kayoed until 1917. Boston Globe reported "Ketchel showed terrific power and speed in knocking out flynn". Also take note, ketchel FLOORED and hurt johnson badly with one right hand. How many middleweight champions in history have floored a 6'1 205lb ATG prime heavyweight champion? NONE

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 05-27-2009 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

isnt it amazing how the wide open sam still defeated Ketchel by newspaper decision?
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Old 05-27-2009, 08:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
I dont think any man weighing under 170lb would do well in some of the stronger heavyweights eras like the 50s-60s. I do think that Ketchel would do well in some of the weaker heavvyweight eras like 1900s 1910s 1920s 1930s where men like Fitzsimmons choynski harry greb and mickey walker were able to defeat many top heavyweight contenders.

So to Summarize, I think Ketchel does very well against the pre 1940s heavyweights, who didnt have modernized skills, kept there hands low, and didnt throw jabs or combinations for the most part. I would like to say I dont see Fitzsimmons with his very primitive bareknuckle style or 5'0 joe walcott doing well at all vs this 50s-60s crowd either....Langford would also have numerous problems. Sam on film did not have very good defense, and was wide open for a good left jab, he also possesed no head movement. Some modern boxers like a Zora Folley Eddie Machen or Ernie Terrell might pick him apart in this regard. Harry Greb never proved he could beat a big heavyweight puncher, imagine if we threw greb in the ring vs a 6'2 Elmer Ray or 6'3 210lb Lee Q Murray or 6'4 220lb Harry Bobo. But if Harry Greb and Mickey Walker and Bob Fitzsimmons could be heavyweight contenders in there eras, then I am sure Stanley could too. Heavyweight Boxing style changed by the 1950s...that is why you never saw another man weighing under 170lb become a heavyweight contender.


Dan Porky Flynn. Ketchel knocked him out in 3 rounds, the fastest porky flynn would be kayoed until 1917. Boston Globe reported "Ketchel showed terrific power and speed in knocking out flynn". Also take note, ketchel FLOORED and hurt johnson badly with one right hand. How many middleweight champions in history have floored a 6'1 205lb ATG prime heavyweight champion? NONE
Ketchel may have floored and hurt Johnson, but Johnson wasn't known to have a top level chin. I don't' think Ketchel would do well vs heavies from 1950 to present. Maybe he could be a top ten level guy, but champion...outside of catching a chinny champ like Ingo or Patterson, I think Ketchel is going to look really bad. Porky Flynn was not a top level guy in his own era.

Regarding Fitzsimmons, it should be noted that Sam Langford and Joe Gan's would work for free to watch him. They wanted to learn. Fitz had some good stuff, and one punch knockout power. Fitz was taught by the legendary Jim Mace himself.

Its a shame his only prime film is grainy and runs at a slow speed. I suggest you watch Fitz high feint high then hook to the body that put Corbett down to the count. That was set up with speed, technique, skill, and timing.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Ketchel may have floored and hurt Johnson, but Johnson wasn't known to have a top level chin. I don't' think Ketchel would do well vs heavies from 1950 to present. Maybe he could be a top ten level guy, but champion...outside of catching a chinny champ like Ingo or Patterson, I think Ketchel is going to look really bad. Porky Flynn was not a top level guy in his own era.

Regarding Fitzsimmons, it should be noted that Sam Langford and Joe Gan's would work for free to watch him. They wanted to learn. Fitz had some good stuff, and one punch knockout power. Fitz was taught by the legendary Jim Mace himself.

Its a shame his only prime film is grainy and runs at a slow speed. I suggest you watch Fitz high feint high then hook to the body that put Corbett down to the count. That was set up with speed, technique, skill, and timing.
From 1901 when Choynsky a terrific hitter kod him to 1915 ,[ the Willard fight], Johnson was floored ONCE, He was kod by Willard after 26 rds when he was 37 years old.Johnson was so hurt by the Ketchel knockdown he got up and Kod Ketchel with his first punch.
Thats 14 years with no kos and only one knockdown against him.
YES HE MUST HAVE BEEN CHINNY
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:20 AM   #7
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
From 1901 when Choynsky a terrific hitter kod him to 1915 ,[ the Willard fight], Johnson was floored ONCE, He was kod by Willard after 26 rds when he was 37 years old.Johnson was so hurt by the Ketchel knockdown he got up and Kod Ketchel with his first punch.
Thats 14 years with no kos and only one knockdown against him.
YES HE MUST HAVE BEEN CHINNY
Wrong again. Gunboat Smith TKO'd Johnson during a 4 round exhibition match when Johnson was champion

Johnson also quit in 10 rounds of a scheduled 20 round title match vs Jim Battling Johnson in a lineal title fight. That should go down as a TKO loss, not a draw.

By the way Ketchel most certainly hurt Johnson and its not like Ketchel landed much during this match. Johnson had to roll over and brace himself to get off the mat. This is not the sign og a good chin.

Yes, Johnson was suspect to being Ko'd or floored. However, because he clinched a lot, and picked a combination of journeyman, washed up x champs, much smaller opponents, or non power punching people in his title defenses, he was not floored often as champion.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:20 AM   #8
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

Mcvey,

That also proves that if Ketchel was the only man to floor johnson in that 14 year span...It speaks of Ketchel's power. Ketchel only man in history to floor a prime jack johnson.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

Quote:

By the way Ketchel most certainly hurt Johnson and its not like Ketchel landed much during this match. Johnson had to roll over and brace himself to get off the mat. This is not the sign og a good chin.
No,

Its a sign of Ketchel's power. Ketchel hit as hard as fitzsimmons and was faster too


Quote:
Its a shame his only prime film is grainy and runs at a slow speed. I suggest you watch Fitz high feint high then hook to the body that put Corbett down to the count. That was set up with speed, technique, skill, and timing.
'

Its a shame ketchel's only prime film is against the 35lb heavier jack johnson, or the lackidasical 4th papke fight. Ketchel's best knockouts are not on film.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
No,

Its a sign of Ketchel's power. Ketchel hit as hard as fitzsimmons and was faster too


'

Its a shame ketchel's only prime film is against the 35lb heavier jack johnson, or the lackidasical 4th papke fight. Ketchel's best knockouts are not on film.
This is an interesting opinion. Which Historian said Ketchel hit harder than Fitzsimmons? I have read none. Fitz Ko better ranked heavies, and scored plenty of ten counts vs much bigger men.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

Let's run through the list you named.

Eddie Machen - A highly skilled heavyweight. Just because Ingo caught him doesn't mean that Ketchel is going to do the same too. Ketchel does not win here.

Harold Johnson - A LHW, but technically even better than Machen. No luck here for Stanley.

Zora Folley - Ditto Eddie Machen.

Archie Moore - Again a LHW. Excellent skills and chilling power. Knocks out Ketchel.

Doug Jones - Gave a young Ali a hell of a fight and beat Bob Foster. I wouldn't place my money on Ketchel here.

Karl Midenberger - Ali said that Karl gave him his toughest fight till that time. Maybe. Maybe Ketchel has an outside chance here. Remember, I only said an outside chance.

Sonny Liston - Sonny is booked for murder after the fight.

Floyd Patterson - Maybe Stanley catches Floyd and decks him a la Jack Johnson. But it is not a 'maybe' that Floyd puts Stanley away for good in the middle rounds whether he is decked or not.

Mac Foster - Foster too big and strong for Stanley. Ketchel may look good against the robotic Mac Foster briefly. But when Mac catches Ketchel as he is bound to do sooner rather than latter, expect a finish similar to the Johnson fight.

Ernie Terrell - Octupas armed Terrell proves to be way too big and his under-rated skills are too much for Ketchel.

Oscar Bonavena - Ketchel hurts his hands on the head of the madly rushing Bonavena. Oscar laughs at Stanley's efforts and proceeds to knock him out.

Ali, Frazier & Foreman - No answer needed. I respect everyone's imagination.

For Ketchel to do well against a HW, two things are required. One, a small HW. Two, a HW with limited fighting qualities. No one on the list qualifies.

Last edited by abraq; 05-29-2009 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraq View Post
Let's run through the list you named.

Eddie Machen - A highly skilled heavyweight. Just because Ingo caught him doesn't mean that Ketchel is going to do the same too. Ketchel does not win here.

Harold Johnson - A LHW, but technically even better than Machen. No luck here for Stanley.

Zora Folley - Ditto Eddie Machen.

Archie Moore - Again a LHW. Excellent skills and chilling power. Knocks out Ketchel.

Doug Jones - Gave a young Ali a hell of a fight and beat Bob Foster. I wouldn't place my money on Ketchel here.

Karl Midenberger - Ali said that Karl gave him his toughest fight till that time. Maybe. Maybe Ketchel has an outside chance here. Remember, I only said an outside chance.

Sonny Liston - Sonny is booked for murder after the fight.

Floyd Patterson - Maybe Stanley catches Floyd and decks him a la Jack Johnson. But it is not a 'maybe' that Floyd puts Stanley away for good in the middle rounds whether he is decked or not.

Mac Foster - Foster too big and strong for Stanley. Ketchel may look good against the robotic Mac Foster briefly. But when Mac catches Ketchel as he is bound to do sooner rather than latter, expect a finish similar to the Johnson fight.

Ernie Terrell - Octupas armed Terrell proves to be way too big and his under-rated skills are too much for Ketchel.

Oscar Bonaven - Ketchel hurts his hands on the head of the madly rushing Bonavena. Oscar laughs at Stanley's efforts and proceeds to knock him out.

Ali, Frazier & Foreman - No answer needed. I respect everyone's imagination.

For Ketchel to do well against a HW, two things are required. One, a small HW. Two, a HW with limited fighting qualities. No one on the list qualifies.
Great post. I would give Ketchel a chance vs Moore though.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

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Wrong again. Gunboat Smith TKO'd Johnson during a 4 round exhibition match when Johnson was champion

Johnson also quit in 10 rounds of a scheduled 20 round title match vs Jim Battling Johnson in a lineal title fight. That should go down as a TKO loss, not a draw.

By the way Ketchel most certainly hurt Johnson and its not like Ketchel landed much during this match. Johnson had to roll over and brace himself to get off the mat. This is not the sign og a good chin.

Yes, Johnson was suspect to being Ko'd or floored. However, because he clinched a lot, and picked a combination of journeyman, washed up x champs, much smaller opponents, or non power punching people in his title defenses, he was not floored often as champion.
Johnson was floored only once in a fight between 1901 and 1915.
HIS SPARRING PARTNER GUNBOAT SMITH PUT HIM THROUGH THE ROPES,IT WAS A SPARRING MATCH.ACCORDING TO BOTH JOHNSON AND SMITH.THERE WAS NO TKO THERE WAS NO RESULT IT WAS A SPAR.WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS MANY TIMES.
When Marciano was floored by Toxie Hall in sparring it was NOT A TKO, because it was a spar.
When Tyson was floored by Greg Page it was NOT A TKO, because it was a spar.
Have you EVER been in a ring you dumb ****?
Sparring is NOT FIGHTING.
You keep regurgitating this same old bullshit though you have been corrected by various posters ,which leads to the conclusion that NOT ONLY ARE YOU A BIGOT YOU ARE A LIAR AS WELL.
GO PEDDLE YOUR BOLLOCKS SOMEWHERE ELSE .YOU PATHETIC CHUMP.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

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Johnson was floored only once in a fight between 1901 and 1915.
HIS SPARRING PARTNER GUNBOAT SMITH PUT HIM THROUGH THE ROPES,IT WAS A SPARRING MATCH.ACCORDING TO BOTH JOHNSON AND SMITH.THERE WAS NO TKO THERE WAS NO RESULT IT WAS A SPAR.WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS MANY TIMES.
When Marciano was floored by Toxie Hall in sparring it was NOT A TKO, because it was a spar.
When Tyson was floored by Greg Page it was NOT A TKO, because it was a spar.
Have you EVER been in a ring you dumb ****?
Sparring is NOT FIGHTING.
You keep regurgitating this same old bullshit though you have been corrected by various posters ,which leads to the conclusion that NOT ONLY ARE YOU A BIGOT YOU ARE A LIAR AS WELL.
GO PEDDLE YOUR BOLLOCKS SOMEWHERE ELSE .YOU PATHETIC CHUMP.
Hey McRacist,

If I produce a new paper article that says Jack Johnson was knocked down, and dazed to the point where his manager stopped the contest vs
Gunboat Smith, will you leave the forum for 3 months?

Ante up, or shut up. You're move.

PS: Its sad that you can not debate without crying ans screaming like a small child. At times, I do pity you.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: Stanely Ketchel vs Heavweights (50's to Now)

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Hey McRacist,

If I produce a new paper article that says Jack Johnson was knocked down, and dazed to the point where his manager stopped the contest vs
Gunboat Smith, will you leave the forum for 3 months?

Ante up, or shut up. You're move.

PS: Its sad that you can not debate without crying ans screaming like a small child. At times, I do pity you.
Mcgrain is disputing that fact but he is saying it was sparring. sparring dont mean jack shit

also MRascist sounds like the new meal deal at mcdonalds
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