When Louis met Burley

McGrain · 08-31-2007, 01:39 PM

In July/August of 1945, full-time cornerman and part time Burley manager Carl Hatfield got Burley some work with some amatuers, as a trainer and mentor. This work, no doubt welcomed by Burley, took him to Long Beach California where Joe Louis was apparently putting on an exhibition (though it may have been that Joe was doing some work with amatuers too). When Joe heard that Charley was around he insisted that Hatfield bring him around.

According to Hank Kaplan, who spoke with Hatfield before he died, Louis told Burley: "I am the heavyweight champ of the world. But you are the best fighter i've ever seen." I like that.

He's also meant to have said:

I wouldn't fight you Burley, you want to know why? Because i'd knock you on your ass.

OR

I wouldn't fight you Burley, you want to know why? Because you'd knock me on my ass.

Louis and Blackburn were both confirmed admirers, and Williams is a close associate of Holman Willaims (Burley's constant opponent in these years) but I think this may have been the only time they met privately.

Anyway, I know this is a longshot but does anyone have any idea what else these two talked about? Anyone read or heard anything? I love both these guys but these two tiny morsels are all i've ever turned up from their conversation.

Of course, that might have been it, neither was what you'd call a blabber mouth.

McGrain · 09-01-2007, 12:53 PM

I'll bump this one a couple of times just on the of chance that something turns up.

Cheers.

janitor · 09-01-2007, 03:00 PM

You have to wonder what Burley could have done if let off the leash.

McGrain · 09-01-2007, 03:12 PM

Indeed. I think about it most days.

Williams and Cocoa Kid would also clean house.

janitor · 09-01-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Indeed. I think about it most days.

Williams and Cocoa Kid would also clean house.

They would have changed the ambience of the house if they didn't clean it.

McGrain · 09-01-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor

They would have changed the ambience of the house if they didn't clean it.

Williams astonishes me - weirdly the best measuring stick for his (potential) success was a loss, rather than a win in my opinion. His split decision loss to LaMotta right at the end of his career - and Williams fought a lot - was booed by the capacity crowd, according to what I have.

You can only imagine what he would have done to these guys if he was placed in with these guys at peak, baring in mind that a peak LaMotta is probably his nightmare opponent, all time.

I rate Williams just below Burley, hairs breadth.

janitor · 09-01-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Williams astonishes me - weirdly the best measuring stick for his (potential) success was a loss, rather than a win in my opinion. His split decision loss to LaMotta right at the end of his career - and Williams fought a lot - was booed by the capacity crowd, according to what I have.

You can only imagine what he would have done to these guys if he was placed in with these guys at peak, baring in mind that a peak LaMotta is probably his nightmare opponent, all time.

I rate Williams just below Burley, hairs breadth.

Burley was many things.

A throwback to the 1920s. A latter day Tommy Loughran with a style of the period. Burley is perhaps the strongest argument against those who say that fighters of the 20s would not be able to compete with those of later eras stylisticaly.

He was feared. Not just by contemporary midleweights but by everybody. He knocked out Elmer Ray in sparring and no heavyweight took him lightly.

McGrain · 09-01-2007, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor

Burley was many things.

A throwback to the 1920s. A latter day Tommy Loughran with a style of the period. Burley is perhaps the strongest argument against those who say that fighters of the 20s would not be able to compete with those of later eras stylisticaly.

He was feared. Not just by contemporary midleweights but by everybody. He knocked out Elmer Ray in sparring and no heavyweight took him lightly.

Yeah, he was a throwback (in more ways than one) - did you know Charley was waring 160z gloves when he ko'd Ray? He also stopped JD Turner in a proper fight in 5.

LaMotta apparently remarked of Burley: What do I need him for, I have Zivic?

No way did LaMotta fear Burley, or any other man, but he knew he was in for a horrible nights work. Aprrantley it nearly came of just before Burley "retired", though that would have been to late for him.

You've hit the nail on the head though; everyone talks about Burley's defence and his ring smarts. If there were ten more powerful welters I can't name them.

janitor · 09-02-2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Yeah, he was a throwback (in more ways than one) - did you know Charley was waring 160z gloves when he ko'd Ray? He also stopped JD Turner in a proper fight in 5.

Burley was giving up over 70lbs to Turner when he knocked him out. That is a lot of weight to give up if you only weigh 150 to start with.

Nemesis · 09-02-2007, 03:27 PM

not too piss on your chips McG, but i have footage of Louis saying Robinson was the greatest fighter ever.

There seems to be far too much myth surrounding Burley, will we ever know how good he is, unlikely.

I put it down to the WW2, if not for that, the lack of fight footage in the 40's is quite amazing. Think about it in the 30's Footage of fights was readily available and then in the early 40's there is very little (what about Zale - Graziano II) of great fighters such as Armstrong, Robinson, Ike Williams et al.

McGrain · 09-02-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis

not too piss on your chips McG, but i have footage of Louis saying Robinson was the greatest fighter ever.

Of course; fighteres are notorios for waxing lyrical on this guy and that guy. Joe was no different I think. But it should also be said that this happened before SRR had come to do domnate the MW division - that is, it's perfectly possible that Joe considered Charley the best fighter in 46 and SRR the greatest fighter whenever your footage is - and as we know there is a difference between "best" and "greatest".

Quote:

There seems to be far too much myth surrounding Burley,

Not sure what you mean by this though...

McGrain · 09-02-2007, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor

Burley was giving up over 70lbs to Turner when he knocked him out. That is a lot of weight to give up if you only weigh 150 to start with.

Indeed. I think that Burley was not a great finisher. He tend to punch people out rather than knock them out. Turner was one of those. Burley just hammered him really.

Nemesis · 09-03-2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Of course; fighteres are notorios for waxing lyrical on this guy and that guy. Joe was no different I think. But it should also be said that this happened before SRR had come to do domnate the MW division - that is, it's perfectly possible that Joe considered Charley the best fighter in 46 and SRR the greatest fighter whenever your footage is - and as we know there is a difference between "best" and "greatest".

Not sure what you mean by this though...

What i mean is that because Burley never had the opportunity to fight the likes of Zale, Graziano, Lamotta, Robinson, Cerdan et al doesnt neccesarily mean he would come out on top against them. Thus he shouldnt neccesarily be ranked ahead of fighters that did achieve more

McGrain · 09-03-2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis

What i mean is that because Burley never had the opportunity to fight the likes of Zale, Graziano, Lamotta, Robinson, Cerdan et al doesnt neccesarily mean he would come out on top against them. Thus he shouldnt neccesarily be ranked ahead of fighters that did achieve more

Yeah, i agree in principle with both of these statments.

Though it's worth noting, I feel, that most people that saw, say, Burley and LaMotta, seem to think that Burley was indeed better.

janitor · 09-04-2007, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis

What i mean is that because Burley never had the opportunity to fight the likes of Zale, Graziano, Lamotta, Robinson, Cerdan et al doesnt neccesarily mean he would come out on top against them. Thus he shouldnt neccesarily be ranked ahead of fighters that did achieve more

Burley is something of a mysterious creature and that is why he is so fascinating.

Archie Moore was adament that Burley was the best fighter that he had ever fought. No small statment given his resume.

08-31-2007, 01:39 PM	#1
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	When Louis met Burley In July/August of 1945, full-time cornerman and part time Burley manager Carl Hatfield got Burley some work with some amatuers, as a trainer and mentor. This work, no doubt welcomed by Burley, took him to Long Beach California where Joe Louis was apparently putting on an exhibition (though it may have been that Joe was doing some work with amatuers too). When Joe heard that Charley was around he insisted that Hatfield bring him around. According to Hank Kaplan, who spoke with Hatfield before he died, Louis told Burley: "I am the heavyweight champ of the world. But you are the best fighter i've ever seen." I like that. He's also meant to have said: I wouldn't fight you Burley, you want to know why? Because i'd knock you on your ass. OR I wouldn't fight you Burley, you want to know why? Because you'd knock me on my ass. Louis and Blackburn were both confirmed admirers, and Williams is a close associate of Holman Willaims (Burley's constant opponent in these years) but I think this may have been the only time they met privately. Anyway, I know this is a longshot but does anyone have any idea what else these two talked about? Anyone read or heard anything? I love both these guys but these two tiny morsels are all i've ever turned up from their conversation. Of course, that might have been it, neither was what you'd call a blabber mouth.
Top

09-01-2007, 12:53 PM	#2
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: When Louis met Burley I'll bump this one a couple of times just on the of chance that something turns up. Cheers.
Top

09-01-2007, 03:00 PM	#3
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,149 vCash: 1000	Re: When Louis met Burley You have to wonder what Burley could have done if let off the leash.
Top

09-01-2007, 03:12 PM	#4
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: When Louis met Burley Indeed. I think about it most days. Williams and Cocoa Kid would also clean house.
Top

09-02-2007, 03:27 PM	#10
Nemesis Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: nil satis nisi optimum Posts: 825 vCash: 75	Re: When Louis met Burley not too piss on your chips McG, but i have footage of Louis saying Robinson was the greatest fighter ever. There seems to be far too much myth surrounding Burley, will we ever know how good he is, unlikely. I put it down to the WW2, if not for that, the lack of fight footage in the 40's is quite amazing. Think about it in the 30's Footage of fights was readily available and then in the early 40's there is very little (what about Zale - Graziano II) of great fighters such as Armstrong, Robinson, Ike Williams et al.
Top