Muhammad Ali: Why is he rated #1 when he clearly isn't the greatest?

[Rock0052]

Originally Posted by Clinton

Good points all.Thanks,by the way.Provocative.However,I know they were both past it at that point,but in my opinion,the Thrilla in Manila is the best heavyweight fight I've ever seen.Maybe they had just one great fight left in them,but that fight was beyond incredible.

It was a great fight. It's almost bittersweet watching it now, knowing that it was really the last stand for them (Joe, in particular). Ali obviously had more success afterwards and continued fighting on, but I concur with you that they both left something in the ring that night. It'd have been impossible not to given how much each man had been through leading into that fight, and what transpired in it.

[Primadonna Kool]

Muhammad Ali won, 3 of the first 4 rounds in Zaire..

Muhammad Ali was beating George Foreman easy..!!!!!!

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

The second career is what makes him, not beating challengers of the calibre of London, Mildenberger, Williams, Chuvalo and Cooper.

Those guys together with dominating wins over Liston, Patterson and Terrell in just 29 fights is one damn good career in itself.

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Originally Posted by hoagy

Ali is one of the greatest H W of all time but his holding ( usually from the bell)would never be allowed today and Tyson ,Lewis,Holmes & maybe Holyfield in their prime would all beat him.Foreman had the potential but not the brain in the jungle rumble,and he was less exciting to watch than Frazier,who IMHO beat him in their 2nd fight.

....though I would put him as a true P4P great around the 12 mark...when talking about the likes of Sugar Ray,Armstrong,Duran,Leonard & Pep.

Interesting Opinion:

You have Tyson, Lewis, Holmes & maybe Holyfield all beating Ali, plus Foreman, and maybe also Frazier; yet you rate Ali P4P around 12th all-time.

And you rate Sugar Ray, Armstrong, Duran & Pep in the 11 that preceed Ali in your all-time P4P list.

Question:

How many of Tyson, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield, Foreman and Frazier do you have in the the other 7 places above Ali in your all-time P4P list??

[Olu G. Rotimi]

Originally Posted by Dempsey1238

Overprotected?? Marciano CLEAN out his era. There was no one to fight when he retire. And dont say Patterson or Liston, Patterson was not in the top ten, and Liston would come 4 years after the Rock's retirement. How can you call Dempsey great, who didnt defend against his number 1 for 7 years in a row, and call the Rock overprotected when he fought and clean out his era.

I give honorable mention to the Rock but he was overprotected not fighting the Cuban and his level of competition was comparatively weak. This is not to denigrate the Rock but I do have him just outside my top 10 heavyweight with the great Jack Dempsey one of the most exciting fighters the world has ever seen. Don't use the name Dempsey and despise this great fighter.

[Dempsey1238]

Originally Posted by Olu G. Rotimi

I give honorable mention to the Rock but he was overprotected not fighting the Cuban and his level of competition was comparatively weak. This is not to denigrate the Rock but I do have him just outside my top 10 heavyweight with the great Jack Dempsey one of the most exciting fighters the world has ever seen. Don't use the name Dempsey and despise this great fighter.

He was only number 1 for a few months before Charles took it back with wins over Wallace and Shatterfiled, and Valez having poor showings.

After Marciano beat Charles 2 times, did Valez regain the spot, but than lost it to Moore. ,Than cont to have poor showings after that. Had Valez been able to maintain the top spot for a year, he might have goting the shot. Besides, Charles, Moore and Walcott were great fighters, even at the ages the Rock fought them. Rocky was in his 30's also. So he was no spring chicken either. And was not overprotected. He clean out his era. No one thats protected ends up cleaning out there era like he did.

I like Dempsey also, but I have to face up to the fact that Dempsey rein for SEVEN years. and not onces in thsos 7 years did he face NUMBER 1 rank contender 7 plus years in a row Harry Wills.

You get onto Marciano for not fighting Valez who slips in and out in a few months time, and yet dont call Dempsey protected when he didnt face his number 1 for seven years, and his number 2 for 5 years?

[mgdb26]

Ali was rated #1 because he's the most popular boxer of all time, not the greatest.

[hoagy]

Originally Posted by COULDHAVEBEEN

Interesting Opinion:

You have Tyson, Lewis, Holmes & maybe Holyfield all beating Ali, plus Foreman, and maybe also Frazier; yet you rate Ali P4P around 12th all-time.

And you rate Sugar Ray, Armstrong, Duran & Pep in the 11 that preceed Ali in your all-time P4P list.

Question:

How many of Tyson, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield, Foreman and Frazier do you have in the the other 7 places above Ali in your all-time P4P list??

I know where you are coming from COULDHAVEBEEN and Ali was ranked by The Ring as the No 3 in the all time P4P list recently...but that will have been down to the quality of fighters around at the time...definitely one of the two "golden era's" of H W boxing.

Only Holmes & Frazier are on that list ever fought Ali,though Ali was past his best against Holmes and also against Frazier( as was himself),and with a different era & against bigger fighters,and also today's referee's not turning a blind eye to Ali's excessive holding from practically the start.. I believe would see fighters like Tyson, Lewis,Holyfield,&Holmes in their prime beat Ali....

As for Foreman and the "rope a dope" ..there was only one winner( loose ropes or sucker tactics or otherwsie ) but Foreman dispatched both Norton and Frazier with ease in early round KO's,whilst Ali lost convincingly to Frazier in the 1st fight at MSG and struggled in fights against Norton....all fights were when these men were at their prime and in peak condition..

I tend to agree that a lot of Ali's popularity was down to the public taking in his ""geatest" boast ,which boosed the sport,but does not convince me he was the greatest H W of all time...his era yes..but all time others disagree..

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

I share your view on Ali that he was one of the greatest heavyweights ever. I also rate him higher P4P than many.

Still curious if you rate any of Tyson, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield, Foreman or Frazier in the the other 7 available places above Ali in your all-time P4P list??

[jowcol]

Is Ali the #1 heavy ever? Open to discussion. I too tend to critisize his second career. No Foreman rematch...the Norton problems...bums of the month...
I've always been skeptical in the matching of fighters from different eras.
IMHO?
A 1918 version of the Klit brothers would have been a step above Willard.
Patterson would have been a lean 205 lb.fighting machine circa 2000...
Hollyfield would have been a 190 lb. boxer/puncher in the late 50's...
Marciano bigger later on...
Lewis would be a bigger, badder, version of Terrell in 1959...etc...etc...
I guess you get my point, I may be wrong in some respect...

I don't see any of the post-90 boys beating Ali.
Would they give him hell? Definitely!

I always mention the summer of 67 thru the summer of 70 Ali that none of us saw. IMO that Ali loses to NO ONE! I had the opportunity to stand next to him once...what a huge man...the youngsters that bring up the "huge" modern heavies? A 68 Ali would dump the Klit's at some point in a "Timmmmber" drop...Tyson wouldn't KO him, Ali decision or stoppage, He would have had an easier time with Norton/Frazier had he met them in the late 60's. To be fair, Joe may have always been a tough out, and Norton's style would have taken Ali the route but Ali always, prior to the 70's comeback, had a game plan for anyone...my $0.02

[COULDHAVEBEEN]

Originally Posted by jowcol

Is Ali the #1 heavy ever? Open to discussion...

....the summer of 67 thru the summer of 70 Ali that none of us saw. IMO that Ali loses to NO ONE!....

Good point and one not often identified in discussions such as this - I agree with your evaluation of the 67 - 70 Ali also.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by jowcol

Is Ali the #1 heavy ever? Open to discussion. I too tend to critisize his second career. No Foreman rematch...the Norton problems...bums of the month...

You tend to critize his second career for this? Are you insane? He had more title fights and more wins over ranked opp. in his second career than most ATGs have had in their whole career. And you critize this because of a rematch that never happened and a possible gift decision?

Now that was stupid. The worst post in this thread since the opening one.

[MRBILL]

Originally Posted by jatt1

Why is mohamad ali always rated as the number 1 boxer p4p ever when clearly he aint even the greatest heavyweight(in my opinion).i have just watched all of his fights and while i agree he is 1 of the best i.e top 20 he shouldnt be regarded as number 1?

can any 1 shine some light on the matter?

surely the rope a dope is a stoopage in todays fights?
liston?2 fights a farce?
ali fighting and getting credit for beating a 50 year old archie moore?

I don't wanna get pissed......... But Ali is an all-time top-5 heavyweight champion at any rate........ I have him at # 1.......

As for Pound-4-Pound, I still place Ali in the top-5 of all-time...........

The man was / is a boxing God.......

SR.BILLARDO