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Old 09-03-2007, 05:05 AM   #46
heerko koois
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Rocky Marciano......some guys overhere do not rank him as a top 10 Atg...
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:07 AM   #47
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coronacards
DON KING'S GIFT DECISIONS GOT HIS TITLE...NOTHING MORE...
oh im sure but he has had some robberies as well.
if don king wasnt involved im sure he wouldnt of got a title...but he did get a title and fought very good ops. losing ofcourse to the best of them but still agreeing to the challenge
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:57 AM   #48
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakman
King thought he could capture the Latino market with a "Latino HW champ." What he didn't count on was that Latino fans are some of the most knowlegable in the sport, and they know a talentless fraud when they see it.

With Ruiz, it's not just the gift decisions, or King's manuevering of the ratings either - it's the blatant and continuous violation of the rules against excessive holding; and even worse, the faked "low blows" in several fights. Why did Ruiz do this? He didn't have the ability to compete legitimately at the world class level. And King helped him get away with it.

What's all this talk about Ruiz in this thread for anyway? All he ever was was a paper titlist - and a fraudulent one at that.
king is smart enough to know that his 'experiment' failed miserably quite fast, and would have had him removed much sooner (if you believe the conspiracy theories) your opinion on ruiz is worthless. you think a amateur with 10 fights under his belt could beat ruiz if he wasn't allowed to 'blatantly cheat'.
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:26 AM   #49
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobkhan
Zakman hates the bearded warrior with a passion ive seldomly seen so your arguments wont be appreciated by him.
No offence Tobkhan, but like oil and water, the word 'Warrior' and the name John Ruiz don't really mix.
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:32 AM   #50
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobkhan
Well, he called himself like that.
Oh ok, I mistakenly assumed that was your opinion of him.
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:44 AM   #51
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Lennox Lewis, especially on this forum.
In time people will come to realise how great he was, well maybe apart from zakman
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Old 09-03-2007, 11:48 AM   #52
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewbear
Lennox Lewis, especially on this forum.
In time people will come to realise how great he was, well maybe apart from zakman
Add me to the list with Zakman as Lewis is already woefully overrated on this forum.
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Old 09-03-2007, 12:30 PM   #53
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

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Originally Posted by Stewbear
Lennox Lewis, especially on this forum.
In time people will come to realise how great he was, well maybe apart from zakman
No doubt. In the future, Lennox will be more highly regarded. I won't be suprised if people eventually rank him as a top 5 heavyweight.
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Old 09-03-2007, 01:14 PM   #54
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

I've always reserved this category for guys like Gene Tunne, Max Schmeling and Ezzard Charles, but last night, on ESPN Classic, they were featuring the "Brown Bombers" later fights near the end of his career, and they showed the two fights with Jersey Joe Walcott, and it was kind of strange, as both fights were shown without any commentary or blow by blow. This was fine with me because it just allowed you to simply watch the fight with no distractions. I was just fascinated by Walcott!! No disrespect intended for Louis, but I just marvelled at Jersey Joe's one of a kind style of shifting fro side to side, the quick shifting of angles, the walking away from punches and his head movement. The strange, selftaught bizarre defensive genius of Walcott was fanscinating for me to watch. Walcott has to be the most underappreciated HW champ of all.
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Old 09-03-2007, 01:22 PM   #55
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amhlilhaus
king is smart enough to know that his 'experiment' failed miserably quite fast, and would have had him removed much sooner (if you believe the conspiracy theories) your opinion on ruiz is worthless. you think a amateur with 10 fights under his belt could beat ruiz if he wasn't allowed to 'blatantly cheat'.
King could keep control of the the title, and generate revenue by matching Ruiz with opponents, such as Holyfield or Golota, who brought the crowds in. However, unlike more talented or popular fighters, Ruiz and his people were well aware that they'd be nowhere without King - so they did exactly as they were told. Other fighters were threats to bolt once their contracts were up.

As if I need anymore proof - since King dumped Ruiz he hasn't "won" a single fight. Case closed.
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Old 09-03-2007, 01:26 PM   #56
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
Yea, you are proberly right, the man when 100% gave the great Joe Louis a few KD's and some sneaky pinpoint punchers, Dropped a steel chinned Marciano, KO'd Charles(one of the best hooks ever) Walcott was a late bloomer but had great hands (power and speed both hands) and was the first fighter to shuffle. I think on a Good night Walcott would have really been trouble for Ali and Dempsey and Foreman and could have upset anyone on a GIVEN night
I have to agree with you on that. Walcott was a brilliant defensive boxer with all those tricky moves of his. I've always been so intrigued by defensive wizardry as practiced by guys like Walcott, Joey Giardello, Maxie Rosenbloom and others, who developed these skill over the course of a long career, more or less through "on the job training" instead of just being gifted "phenoms" from the get-go of their careers. It would be interesting to have all these type guys as the topic of a new thread about boxing "wizardry", including some modern day non champs like Emanuel Augustus and even Mike "The Bounty Hunter", the heavyweight contender of a few years back who died recenly.
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Old 09-03-2007, 02:57 PM   #57
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cross_trainer
By lineage rights the Police Gazette title belonged to Sullivan, since he beat Kilrain for it. From thence, Corbett. Then again, Fox never took to Sullivan, so he likely stripped him.
Sullivan lost it first time round to Tug Wilson in July 1882, then again on 4th June 1887, when the title was awarded to Kilrain at the Monumental Theatre, Baltimore, as Sullivan refused Kilrain's challenge and failed to put a $1,000 deposit for a $2,500 fight that Kilrain challenged Sullivan to on May 17th 1887.

Kilarain lost it in May 1890 allegedly due to being at deaths door (despite fighting on to 1899 and living until 78 years old).

Slavin won the vacant title in September 1890 with his two round win over Joe McAuliffe.
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:41 PM   #58
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Definately not Lennox Lewis. He gets WAYYY too much credit for beating shot-to-hell Tyson and post-prime Holyfield, got starched by McCall and Rahman, and RETIRED after the Vitali match...a close fight that many though he could've/would've lost. He fares well in my H2H lists, but honestly, his resume is pretty flat.

How old was Lewis when he retired? Yeah, he went out "on top", but the only time he was really tested in his career, he retired after the fight.

This is the guy that's supposed to be top 2 ATG?

As far as most underappreciated champ, I think Ruiz is a good choice, honestly. Most of the oldschool guys who are "underappreciated" around here tend to get praise when they do get brought up, whereas Ruiz gets bashed on a near-daily basis. I don't care for his style, but the guy has balls...he fought everyone he could, and he's no chump.
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:51 PM   #59
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Lewis, Walcott and Schmeling come to mind.
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Old 09-04-2007, 03:49 AM   #60
Sweet Science
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Default Re: Most underappreciated HW champ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by radianttwilight
Definately not Lennox Lewis. He gets WAYYY too much credit for beating shot-to-hell Tyson and post-prime Holyfield, got starched by McCall and Rahman, and RETIRED after the Vitali match...a close fight that many though he could've/would've lost. He fares well in my H2H lists, but honestly, his resume is pretty flat.

How old was Lewis when he retired? Yeah, he went out "on top", but the only time he was really tested in his career, he retired after the fight.

This is the guy that's supposed to be top 2 ATG?

As far as most underappreciated champ, I think Ruiz is a good choice, honestly. Most of the oldschool guys who are "underappreciated" around here tend to get praise when they do get brought up, whereas Ruiz gets bashed on a near-daily basis. I don't care for his style, but the guy has balls...he fought everyone he could, and he's no chump.
I agree that Lennox Lewis gets way too much credit. Whoever has him at No.2 needs to be re-educated or otherwise shot.

However, I disagree that Ruiz deserves any praise, he is the most boring fighter I can think of with the most unattractive style of 'fighting' I have ever had the misfortune of witnessing.
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