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Old 08-31-2007, 01:39 PM   #1
McGrain
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Default When Louis met Burley

In July/August of 1945, full-time cornerman and part time Burley manager Carl Hatfield got Burley some work with some amatuers, as a trainer and mentor. This work, no doubt welcomed by Burley, took him to Long Beach California where Joe Louis was apparently putting on an exhibition (though it may have been that Joe was doing some work with amatuers too). When Joe heard that Charley was around he insisted that Hatfield bring him around.

According to Hank Kaplan, who spoke with Hatfield before he died, Louis told Burley: "I am the heavyweight champ of the world. But you are the best fighter i've ever seen." I like that.

He's also meant to have said:

I wouldn't fight you Burley, you want to know why? Because i'd knock you on your ass.

OR

I wouldn't fight you Burley, you want to know why? Because you'd knock me on my ass.

Louis and Blackburn were both confirmed admirers, and Williams is a close associate of Holman Willaims (Burley's constant opponent in these years) but I think this may have been the only time they met privately.

Anyway, I know this is a longshot but does anyone have any idea what else these two talked about? Anyone read or heard anything? I love both these guys but these two tiny morsels are all i've ever turned up from their conversation.

Of course, that might have been it, neither was what you'd call a blabber mouth.
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Old 09-01-2007, 12:53 PM   #2
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

I'll bump this one a couple of times just on the of chance that something turns up.

Cheers.
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Old 09-01-2007, 03:00 PM   #3
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

You have to wonder what Burley could have done if let off the leash.
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Old 09-01-2007, 03:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Indeed. I think about it most days.

Williams and Cocoa Kid would also clean house.
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Old 09-01-2007, 03:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Indeed. I think about it most days.

Williams and Cocoa Kid would also clean house.
They would have changed the ambience of the house if they didn't clean it.
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Old 09-01-2007, 03:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
They would have changed the ambience of the house if they didn't clean it.
Williams astonishes me - weirdly the best measuring stick for his (potential) success was a loss, rather than a win in my opinion. His split decision loss to LaMotta right at the end of his career - and Williams fought a lot - was booed by the capacity crowd, according to what I have.

You can only imagine what he would have done to these guys if he was placed in with these guys at peak, baring in mind that a peak LaMotta is probably his nightmare opponent, all time.

I rate Williams just below Burley, hairs breadth.
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Old 09-01-2007, 04:01 PM   #7
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Williams astonishes me - weirdly the best measuring stick for his (potential) success was a loss, rather than a win in my opinion. His split decision loss to LaMotta right at the end of his career - and Williams fought a lot - was booed by the capacity crowd, according to what I have.

You can only imagine what he would have done to these guys if he was placed in with these guys at peak, baring in mind that a peak LaMotta is probably his nightmare opponent, all time.

I rate Williams just below Burley, hairs breadth.
Burley was many things.

A throwback to the 1920s. A latter day Tommy Loughran with a style of the period. Burley is perhaps the strongest argument against those who say that fighters of the 20s would not be able to compete with those of later eras stylisticaly.

He was feared. Not just by contemporary midleweights but by everybody. He knocked out Elmer Ray in sparring and no heavyweight took him lightly.
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Old 09-01-2007, 04:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

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Originally Posted by janitor
Burley was many things.

A throwback to the 1920s. A latter day Tommy Loughran with a style of the period. Burley is perhaps the strongest argument against those who say that fighters of the 20s would not be able to compete with those of later eras stylisticaly.

He was feared. Not just by contemporary midleweights but by everybody. He knocked out Elmer Ray in sparring and no heavyweight took him lightly.
Yeah, he was a throwback (in more ways than one) - did you know Charley was waring 160z gloves when he ko'd Ray? He also stopped JD Turner in a proper fight in 5.

LaMotta apparently remarked of Burley: What do I need him for, I have Zivic?

No way did LaMotta fear Burley, or any other man, but he knew he was in for a horrible nights work. Aprrantley it nearly came of just before Burley "retired", though that would have been to late for him.

You've hit the nail on the head though; everyone talks about Burley's defence and his ring smarts. If there were ten more powerful welters I can't name them.
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Old 09-02-2007, 10:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Yeah, he was a throwback (in more ways than one) - did you know Charley was waring 160z gloves when he ko'd Ray? He also stopped JD Turner in a proper fight in 5.
Burley was giving up over 70lbs to Turner when he knocked him out. That is a lot of weight to give up if you only weigh 150 to start with.
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Old 09-02-2007, 03:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

not too piss on your chips McG, but i have footage of Louis saying Robinson was the greatest fighter ever.

There seems to be far too much myth surrounding Burley, will we ever know how good he is, unlikely.

I put it down to the WW2, if not for that, the lack of fight footage in the 40's is quite amazing. Think about it in the 30's Footage of fights was readily available and then in the early 40's there is very little (what about Zale - Graziano II) of great fighters such as Armstrong, Robinson, Ike Williams et al.
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Old 09-02-2007, 06:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
not too piss on your chips McG, but i have footage of Louis saying Robinson was the greatest fighter ever.
Of course; fighteres are notorios for waxing lyrical on this guy and that guy. Joe was no different I think. But it should also be said that this happened before SRR had come to do domnate the MW division - that is, it's perfectly possible that Joe considered Charley the best fighter in 46 and SRR the greatest fighter whenever your footage is - and as we know there is a difference between "best" and "greatest".

Quote:
There seems to be far too much myth surrounding Burley,
Not sure what you mean by this though...
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Old 09-02-2007, 06:45 PM   #12
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Burley was giving up over 70lbs to Turner when he knocked him out. That is a lot of weight to give up if you only weigh 150 to start with.
Indeed. I think that Burley was not a great finisher. He tend to punch people out rather than knock them out. Turner was one of those. Burley just hammered him really.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Of course; fighteres are notorios for waxing lyrical on this guy and that guy. Joe was no different I think. But it should also be said that this happened before SRR had come to do domnate the MW division - that is, it's perfectly possible that Joe considered Charley the best fighter in 46 and SRR the greatest fighter whenever your footage is - and as we know there is a difference between "best" and "greatest".



Not sure what you mean by this though...
What i mean is that because Burley never had the opportunity to fight the likes of Zale, Graziano, Lamotta, Robinson, Cerdan et al doesnt neccesarily mean he would come out on top against them. Thus he shouldnt neccesarily be ranked ahead of fighters that did achieve more
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
What i mean is that because Burley never had the opportunity to fight the likes of Zale, Graziano, Lamotta, Robinson, Cerdan et al doesnt neccesarily mean he would come out on top against them. Thus he shouldnt neccesarily be ranked ahead of fighters that did achieve more

Yeah, i agree in principle with both of these statments.

Though it's worth noting, I feel, that most people that saw, say, Burley and LaMotta, seem to think that Burley was indeed better.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:01 AM   #15
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Default Re: When Louis met Burley

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
What i mean is that because Burley never had the opportunity to fight the likes of Zale, Graziano, Lamotta, Robinson, Cerdan et al doesnt neccesarily mean he would come out on top against them. Thus he shouldnt neccesarily be ranked ahead of fighters that did achieve more
Burley is something of a mysterious creature and that is why he is so fascinating.

Archie Moore was adament that Burley was the best fighter that he had ever fought. No small statment given his resume.
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