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Old 06-23-2009, 01:53 PM   #16
Rock0052
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
I think Pep clearly possessed more boxing skill although some might disagree with this.

This doesn't mean that I necessarily rate him higher than Ali. I just think that Pep was more of a boxing master while Ali got by with trendemous amounts of natural talent and later with his toughness.

Pre-plane crash Pep and pre-draft Ali were about as dominant in their respective divisions, I would actually give Pep the edge there. Ali coming back to beat the likes of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Shavers was of course legendary and probably puts his overall resume above Pep's.
I think at least a part of that perception also has to do with the public visibility of the fighters involved. Being a good flyweight in the 40's didn't carry near the recognition of being a good heavyweight contender/champ in the late 60's and 70's. I believe that Saddler was a better fighter than anyone Ali ever fought, for example.
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Old 06-23-2009, 01:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

1.Robinson
2.Armstrong
3.Langford
4.Greb
5.Ali
6.Pep
....
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Old 06-23-2009, 01:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

I have Pep at 7 and Ali at 9. I feel Pep was more consistent, skilled and while Ali has a better resume I believe Pep's win over Saddler while past his best and after the crash is one of the best wins in boxing even better then Ali's over Foreman.
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
I think at least a part of that perception also has to do with the public visibility of the fighters involved. Being a good flyweight in the 40's didn't carry near the recognition of being a good heavyweight contender/champ in the late 60's and 70's.
I agree. Pep beat hall of famers, champions, top contenders but you'd have to know a lot about that particular era to give him the appropriate credit for what he did.

Foreman, Frazier and Liston were true greats in the heavyweight division but names like Lyle, Shavers, Chuvalo, Quarry were no more accomplished than the likes of Sal Bartolo, Jackie Graves, Humberto Sierra, Ray Famechon... They are just more known to the average boxing fan.
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post

This is an irresponsible statement. It's gonna take an awful lot to justify arguing that anyone has more skill than the Will 'o the Wisp.
its just an opinion there stonehands, its not a terrible one either. giving ali the nod is alright with me.
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:39 PM   #21
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
I agree. Pep beat hall of famers, champions, top contenders but you'd have to know a lot about that particular era to give him the appropriate credit for what he did.

Foreman, Frazier and Liston were true greats in the heavyweight division but names like Lyle, Shavers, Chuvalo, Quarry were no more accomplished than the likes of Sal Bartolo, Jackie Graves, Humberto Sierra, Ray Famechon... They are just more known to the average boxing fan.
Exactly. For example, Sandy Saddler was an ATG, but most people don't know the caliber of his opposition besides that and hold Pep's 1-3 record against him as the only time he fought high caliber opposition. But consider...

Sandy Saddler - IBHOF fighter, featherweight champ and conservatively, top 40 ATG
Phil Terranova - World boxing HOF fighter, featherweight champ, 1-0 vs Sandy Saddler
Paddy Demarco - went on to become lightweight champ past his prime
Sal Bartolo - featherweight champ
Jackie Wilson - featherweight champ
Harold Dade - bantamweight champ who had a win over HOF'er Manuel Ortiz
Manuel Ortiz - IBHOF fighter, bantamweight champ
Sammy Angott - IBHOF fighter, lightweight champ
Joey Archibald- featherweight champ. This is the only fighter on this list that was shot when Pep beat him.
Chalky Wright - featherweight champ, Ring's top 100 puncher

Those are the list of champions Pep fought, only losing 4 fights between Angott (which he could have won if the fight were longer going by the reports) and Saddler. That's not including contenders like Corky Gonzalez and Willie Joyce - Willie was a top contender at 140 who beat Ike Williams and Henry Armstrong multiple times, as well as lightweight champ Lew Jenkins. In 1944 he defeated both Armstrong and Ike Williams, Armstrong weighing 140 at the time. Sandwiched in between that stellar year? A loss to the 127 pound Willie Pep.
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

I'm glad some people are picking Ali, and good posters at that (not to say you are a bad poster for picking Pep), again not a bias thing, just my opinion, Ali.
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:07 PM   #23
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

Ali.
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:23 PM   #24
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

Pep.
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Ali. Both stayed at one weight, Ali dominated a better class of opponents, and did so in fewer fights. Pretty easy one for me.
No way whitaker ranks over Ali either then with that resume
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Sandy Saddler - IBHOF fighter, featherweight champ and conservatively, top 40 ATG
Phil Terranova - World boxing HOF fighter, featherweight champ, 1-0 vs Sandy Saddler
Paddy Demarco - went on to become lightweight champ past his prime
Sal Bartolo - featherweight champ
Jackie Wilson - featherweight champ
Harold Dade - bantamweight champ who had a win over HOF'er Manuel Ortiz
Manuel Ortiz - IBHOF fighter, bantamweight champ
Sammy Angott - IBHOF fighter, lightweight champ
Joey Archibald- featherweight champ. This is the only fighter on this list that was shot when Pep beat him.
Chalky Wright - featherweight champ, Ring's top 100 puncher

Excellent post. A shot version of Willie Pep at age 36 also was ahead on the cards going into round 9 vs Featherweight Champ Hogan Kid Bassey...incredible performance by a shot pep easily outboxing bassey
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:02 PM   #27
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

I have Willie Pep at # 2 and Ali at # 9. I favor Willie Pep for he was the more talented fighter h2h in his prime, in fact there was no one as naturally talented as pep except sugar ray robinson in h2h. p4p ranking isnt just about resumes....but Willie Pep could not have accomplished more in his era than he did........Heres a small featherweight who dominated a whole deep era for a DECADE, beat great hall of fame fighters, and stepped up 2 weight classes and beat a very respectable lightweight contender/champion
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Excellent post. A shot version of Willie Pep at age 36 also was ahead on the cards going into round 9 vs Featherweight Champ Hogan Kid Bassey...incredible performance by a shot pep easily outboxing bassey
Great point. I know I said it before, but I also would like to again stress how good the Willie Joyce win was- here's a guy beating Henry Armstrong and Ike Williams in the same year, but Pep gets the W despite being the significantly smaller fighter.

I think the perception that Ali's competition was so much better than Pep's has to do with the visibility of the fighters involved, not necessarily the quality of them.
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:18 PM   #29
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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here's a guy beating Henry Armstrong and Ike Williams in the same year, but Pep gets the W despite being the significantly smaller fighter.

I think the perception that Ali's competition was so much better than Pep's has to do with the visibility of the fighters involved, not necessarily the quality of them

EXCELLENT POST. I agree. A win over a prime Manuel Ortiz, perhaps the best bantamweight of all time, who weighed in nearly the same as pep deserves alot of credit too
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
EXCELLENT POST. I agree. A win over a prime Manuel Ortiz, perhaps the best bantamweight of all time, who weighed in nearly the same as pep deserves alot of credit too
Very true.
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