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Old 03-09-2011, 06:19 AM   #76
teeto
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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pep's resume has been critiqued before on here and likely will again. going through his resume though, he did face quite a few top 10 ranked opponents. like a LOT and this is a time when top 10 ranks were earned (for the most part)

HOWEVER, his resume is berift of all time great names. he faced (as far as i know) 3 HOF fights: saddler, wright and angott.

as said, saddler CLEARLY got the better of their series, he dominated wright and angott smothered him to victory. compared with the all time greats on ali's resume (as least 3 potential top 10 heavies) it's a little pale
Yeah, good post. Pep's clearly one of the best fighters that ever lived, he faced his opposition, the right opposition, one of the greatest champions to live, but like we both say, when it comes down to an objective assessment of resume, Ali wins clearly for me. He also was the best of his division's era, and in 2 eras at that. Plus the great scalps he claimed.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:09 AM   #77
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

I have Ali at 2 and Pep at 5.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:28 AM   #78
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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as said, saddler CLEARLY got the better of their series, he dominated wright and angott smothered him to victory. compared with the all time greats on ali's resume (as least 3 potential top 10 heavies) it's a little pale
saddler didn't clearly get the better of their series. those who were there at the time don't think he did either (the third fight is at the crux of this myth). and that's even without taking into account that pep had been in a plane crash.

the fact that ali beat three fighters who appear in top ten heavyweight lists is a misleading stat to bring up when comparing him to a featherweight. foreman, frazier and liston don't fare so well on pound for pound lists, compared to fighters that pep beat.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:47 AM   #79
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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saddler didn't clearly get the better of their series. those who were there at the time don't think he did either (the third fight is at the crux of this myth). and that's even without taking into account that pep had been in a plane crash.

the fact that ali beat three fighters who appear in top ten heavyweight lists is a misleading stat to bring up when comparing him to a featherweight. foreman, frazier and liston don't fare so well on pound for pound lists, compared to fighters that pep beat.
Heavyweights are criminally underrated pound for pound though. People have this idea that pound for pound translates into 'let's give extra credit to smaller fighters simply because thy're less known and ignore heavyweights and deflate their achievements because armchair fans around the world think they're the best'

It doesn't mean this. It just means let's assess them regardless of weight, no agenda. I think it's going to be a shame if Ali's resume is going to be scrutinised, let's just accept it for what it is. Nobody is scrutinising Pep's resume, his career is fantastic. Ali's resume is just better.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:02 AM   #80
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

Ali. Better competition, more resilient p4p, harder puncher p4p, but it's close and they're very closely skilled. If Pep never had that plane accident, he'd undoubtedly be ranked ahead.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:21 PM   #81
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

Pep, no comparison...Ali has the hype that goes with the division, enlarge Willie or Shrink George Foreman or Liston and watch Willie go untouched
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:58 PM   #82
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

Both guys make my top 5, there is nothing to choose between them.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:01 PM   #83
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Interestingly enough, Angelo Dundee and Carmine Basillio both think that Willie Pep was the all time best pound 4 pound fighter.
He has a strong argument vs anyone outside of Ray Robinson IMO.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:46 PM   #84
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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Heavyweights are criminally underrated pound for pound though. People have this idea that pound for pound translates into 'let's give extra credit to smaller fighters simply because thy're less known and ignore heavyweights and deflate their achievements because armchair fans around the world think they're the best'

It doesn't mean this. It just means let's assess them regardless of weight, no agenda. I think it's going to be a shame if Ali's resume is going to be scrutinised, let's just accept it for what it is. Nobody is scrutinising Pep's resume, his career is fantastic. Ali's resume is just better.
yeah it's silly to discredit heavyweights just because it's a pound of pound list. heavyweights actually compile unique accomplishments that should favour them pound for pound in some circumstances e.g. fighting in an unlimited weight class.

we'll have to agree to differ about ali vs pep
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:41 PM   #85
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

what the hell?! where's the bloodshed?? where's the homophobic insults? this is a thoroughly civilized and well thought out discussion, with sound arguments on both sides. don't you know...

THIS IS THE INTERNET [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:23 PM   #86
teeto
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

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yeah it's silly to discredit heavyweights just because it's a pound of pound list. heavyweights actually compile unique accomplishments that should favour them pound for pound in some circumstances e.g. fighting in an unlimited weight class.

we'll have to agree to differ about ali vs pep
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:39 PM   #87
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Default Re: Who is higher on your ATG p4p list, Ali or Pep? Why?

I have changed my opinion and dont rate Pep as highly as I did, but I feel his record is very underlooked at this period in time. I'm wanting to buy Brian Hughes book on Pep and hopefully it helps unlock Pep's career.
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