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Old 09-05-2007, 07:31 PM   #16
McGrain
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

Much of what Gene Tunney does well, Johnson does better in my opinion - generalship, counterpunching, delivery - I pick Johnson in all these departments.

Tunney still moves better, of course, but he has to fight sometime - he'll lose those exchanges in my opinion, and if Johnson DOES begin to struggle, for whatever reason, he has more power.

Johnson, UD, Tunney comes out of it wishing he'd fought Greb again instead.
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Old 09-05-2007, 07:32 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

Ugly fight on paper, but compelling none the less.

Johnson and Tunney were boxers of a different breed: Johnson an infuriating spoiler/counter puncher, Tunney a lively 'fencer'. Johnson would hold you up too dry all day whereas Tunney would take the opportunities as they came.

If you put these two together, one would have to be the attacker. On this point alone, Ted Spoon would have to favour the more powerful Johnson to make things happen - he had the speed to clutch Tunney and the punch to trouble him. Tunney would have a hard time trying to stop Johnson's output and spoiling ways over 15 or more rounds.

Tunney may outland Johnson in stanza's but he'd have to fight out of himself - a rusty Dempsey could be contained by Tunney over 10; a peak, tactically inclined Jack Johnson is a different matter. Those 17" guns would probably hug and disrupt Tunney to the point where Johnson could get the edge in a slow burner.
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Old 09-06-2007, 04:54 AM   #18
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

This would be an absorbing matchup that really could go either way, but I think Johnson has the tools in his armoury to pull off he win, over the course of a trilogy it's anybodys guess. I think this fight would go to the scorecards.

Johnson, via close split decision.
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Old 09-06-2007, 05:34 AM   #19
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi1985
Who wins and why?
Fascinating matchup! Johnson is my no 2 behind Ali,but Tunney gives him all kinds of problems,faster afoot and just as clever and cool,Gene wouldnt be throwing wild shots ,or lunging in like Jim Flynn,he was a calculating boxer with a rapier left hand and a quick hurful right,but Jack was stronger probably hit harder,he could tie Tunney up in close and rip in his uppercut,at long range Tunney would score ,but he would be going back all night,working overtimeJohnson would take ring centre,and pivot off the back foot not wasting a thing,plus his sense of anticipation was uncanny,TYunney depended on his legs to avoid trouble ,Johnson had radar,Jack takes a split dec.
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Old 09-06-2007, 05:58 AM   #20
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Much of what Gene Tunney does well, Johnson does better in my opinion - generalship, counterpunching, delivery - I pick Johnson in all these departments.
Disagree. In what Johnson fights do you see him stick and move like Tunney did against Dempsey twice?

In fact, in what fights do you see him jab at all? Mostly he throws a punch, gets in a clinch, wrestles, does some work there and then repeats all over.
What if he meets a boxer who knows how to keep his distance, jabs well and throws combinations? These were things that were not really present in Johnsons time when boxing was still half wrestling and had some of that bareknuckle style in it.
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:02 AM   #21
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Disagree. In what Johnson fights do you see him stick and move like Tunney did against Dempsey twice?

In fact, in what fights do you see him jab at all? Mostly he throws a punch, gets in a clinch, wrestles, does some work there and then repeats all over.
What if he meets a boxer who knows how to keep his distance, jabs well and throws combinations? These were things that were not really present in Johnsons time when boxing was still half wrestling and had some of that bareknuckle style in it.
Hang fire a minute.

Watch Tunney vs Carpinter and he looks a lot more like Johnson and uses similar methods because he is fighting a smaller oponent.

If we had some footage of Johnson against some of his larger oponents he might use different methods.
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:04 AM   #22
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Disagree. In what Johnson fights do you see him stick and move like Tunney did against Dempsey twice?.
I did list the things that I was refering to, and also said that I though Tunney was more mobile.
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

Fair enough. But you think Johnson would not be troubled by Tunney's mobility?
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:37 AM   #24
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Fair enough. But you think Johnson would not be troubled by Tunney's mobility?
No. Johnson would pick him when Tunney choses to fight. I honestly think that Johnson is a guy (one of the few) who would find Tunney an easy nights work, reletivley speaking of course.
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:52 AM   #25
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

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Originally Posted by McGrain
No. Johnson would pick him when Tunney choses to fight. I honestly think that Johnson is a guy (one of the few) who would find Tunney an easy nights work, reletivley speaking of course.
I am amazed at how many historians and fans completely mis-understand Johnson. Johnson was a much better in-fighter than out fighter, had a cautious style in the ring, and he was not very active with his punch out put.

Tunney was a fast boxer mover type with a great jab, great footwork, and very astute to the strengths and weakness of his opponent. This would be a boxing match. Tunney's superior out fighting and punches thrown in the match means he wins. I don't think Johnson can out box Tunney, and Tunney would not let Johnson clinch much.
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:56 AM   #26
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
I am amazed at how many historians and fans completely mis-understand Johnson. Johnson was a much better in-fighter than out fighter, had a cautious style in the ring, and he was not very active with his punch out put.

Tunney was a fast boxer mover type with a great jab, great footwork, and very astute to the strengths and weakness of his opponent. This would be a boxing match. Tunney's superior out fighting and punches thrown in the match means he wins. I don't think Johnson can out box Tunney, and Tunney would not let Johnson clinch much.
Tunney wouldn't have a choice about whether or not Johnson clinches him. Johnson used the smothering of punches to enforce a clinch, he didn't wait for someone to run up to him and throw their arms around him. This, as you seem to understand, is suicide with a fighter like Johnson.

Tunney is a superior outfighter - but in my opinion he is in greater need of a dancing partner than vice versa. When Tunney throws punches in this boxing match he enters Johnson's realm - of course, as a most cerebral fighter he will know this. The problem is that he's in there with maybe the only lineal HW champ who might be sharper than him.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:06 AM   #27
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Tunney wouldn't have a choice about whether or not Johnson clinches him. Johnson used the smothering of punches to enforce a clinch, he didn't wait for someone to run up to him and throw their arms around him. This, as you seem to understand, is suicide with a fighter like Johnson.

Tunney is a superior outfighter - but in my opinion he is in greater need of a dancing partner than vice versa. When Tunney throws punches in this boxing match he enters Johnson's realm - of course, as a most cerebral fighter he will know this. The problem is that he's in there with maybe the only lineal HW champ who might be sharper than him.

Tunney was a good in-fighter himself and owned a very good chin. As to choices, Tunney could box and move, even throw punches on balance while moving backwards or circling all night for a full 15 rounds. In truth Johnson was a good athlete, but he was also a tad clumsy when he was not grounded. Johnson slipped vs Burns, and fell from missed punches as he KO’d Ketchel.

Tunney was from the Benny Leonard School of boxing. All opponents wanted to catch up to Tunney and Leonard. Few ever did. Johnson would have to burn stamina to match Tunney's movement and punch out put. No Johnson fight on film suggests he can do this. It simply was not Johnson style.
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:12 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Tunney wouldn't have a choice about whether or not Johnson clinches him. Johnson used the smothering of punches to enforce a clinch, he didn't wait for someone to run up to him and throw their arms around him. This, as you seem to understand, is suicide with a fighter like Johnson.

Tunney is a superior outfighter - but in my opinion he is in greater need of a dancing partner than vice versa. When Tunney throws punches in this boxing match he enters Johnson's realm - of course, as a most cerebral fighter he will know this. The problem is that he's in there with maybe the only lineal HW champ who might be sharper than him.
Yeah, a mostly superb post. Regarding the point in bold I'd say: "With the excaption of Ali."
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Old 09-06-2007, 07:12 AM   #29
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Johnson would have to burn stamina to match Tunney's movement
Why? I've already said that I don't feel Johnson would chase Tunney in the traditional sense. Why do you think he would? Johnson was a master of controlling space and I think this was mostly about the timing of his slips - he often stepped right back (a no no) but it worked for him for two reasons. One, he was setting up a perfectly timed counter. Two, he could, famously, block and throw with one movement. This is of huge value if Tunney potshots. If he's looking to land combo's then he will get sucked into the Johnson clinch and be battered.

Quote:
No Johnson fight on film suggests he can do this. It simply was not Johnson style.
I couldn't agree more, but it seems to be the style you are forcing upon him in this fight.

If Johnson fights Tunney's fight, of course he will lose. I consider this the most unlikely fight plan for Jack though.
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Old 09-06-2007, 09:27 AM   #30
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Gene Tunney

IMO this thread shows how overrated Johnson is. Tunney´s footwork and speed would be too much for Jack. The joke of a poster C.M. Clayy II wrote, that Johnson KO´s Tunney although he fought his fight. Tunney´s chin was world-class, he showed it in the Dempsey- fights.


Tunney UD 15 Johnson



(9-6)
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