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View Poll Results: Could Jack Knock Out Liston?
Hell Yes 52 68.42%
Nope 24 31.58%
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:27 PM   #31
GPater11093
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I would say that you are half right.

Dempsey is not a slugger in the conventional sense or even necisarily a come forward fighter in the conventional sense.

Dempsey used movment to outflank larger oponents and definitely had a reverse gear when he chose to use it. He could play the counterpuncher as well as the attacker and often did. Dempsey played the chameleon somtimes switching between an attacking aproach and a mobile counterpunching aproach.

These factors combined with his hand speed advantage over Liston make this match up a lot more complex than most people on this site believe.

Ultimately however Dempsey single greatest weakness was that he could get caught coming in and was liable to be going in the wrong direction if it happened. This almost cost him the match against Luis Firpo a fighter who he was otherwise dominating. To that extent the dynamic of the swarmer vs the slugger could be his undoing.
you summed it up brillaintly. He can box but at the top level is his boxing skills good enough?
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:29 PM   #32
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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By that logic Larry Holmes would loose to every all time great and most lineal champions.
I think guys like Norton, Witherspoon, ****ey, Mercer etc are a lot closer in quality (not that much more stylistically similar, though) to Liston than anyone Dempsey beat. By the way, Evangelista would be the best Holmes had beaten if he had made the same distinctions concerning opponents that Dempsey did (only whites, except the best one of them). I know that's not a perfect comparison, but it does give us some perspective.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:37 PM   #33
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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you summed it up brillaintly. He can box but at the top level is his boxing skills good enough?
Hard to say given what we have to go on. In the footage we have Dempsey either easily outboxes big but limited fighters or outslugs small technical boxers.

Tommy Gibbons who was a superior technician claimed that Dempsey was a good boxer:

"Don't let anybody tell you that Jack Dempsey can't box"

Gibbons could probably be compared to sombody like Eddie Machen and it apears that Dempsey has some success in outboxing him. Of course the acid test would be if you reduce Dempsey's power to the level of Gibbons and then see what happens.

It is hard to be certain whether Dempsey could outbox Liston who had verry good fundamentals but he would have held an edge in both hand speed and speed of head movment so at the verry least he would have been a constant threat to catch Liston with a nasty countercombo.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:37 PM   #34
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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What exactly makes you so sure that Patterson would beat Willard to a pulp?

We are talking about a 245 lb power puncher with an all time chin against a blown up light heavyweight with a questionable chin under a rule set that you have not specified.

If you dont have serious doubts about Patterson winning this never mind winning easily then you are being a bit niaeve.
How did Willard prove he had an "all time chin"?

Willard was totally open against Dempsey, with a very limited ****nal. Patterson would land at him at will, and even though he wasn't at Dempsey's level as a puncher, he packed a nice wallop. I don't see Willard landing too much on him, either. Under the ruleset of 1919 it would turn out very bloody indeed for Willard.

And Patterson's questionable chin stood up for everyone except Liston and Ingo. Dempsey's stood up for everyone except Flynn.

I respect your knowledge Janitor, but I actually thinks it's you who is naive here. How in earth would Willard stand up to Patterson's speed and skill? The Archie Moore of 1956 was far superior to the Willard of 1919, but...
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:45 PM   #35
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
I think guys like Norton, Witherspoon, ****ey, Mercer etc are a lot closer in quality (not that much more stylistically similar, though) to Liston than anyone Dempsey beat.
How so?

Norton had seen better days and not everybody agrees that it was a convincing win (one of your criteria).

Witherspood did not do enough to difarentiate himself from Dempsey's best oponents on paper and again it was a controvertial win.

If I held up some fighter on Dempsey's record with Conneys record vs curently ranked opposition he would be imidiately dismissed as a nobody.

The Mercer win is awsome given the circumstances but his limitations are obvious.

All of these guys were either beaten controvertialy or are only ranked above people Dempsey beat based on theoretical potential that they did not realise in the ring.

Quote:
By the way, Evangelista would be the best Holmes had beaten if he had made the same distinctions concerning opponents that Dempsey did (only whites, except the best one of them). I know that's not a perfect comparison, but it does give us some perspective.
Not really.

The reality is that Dempsey fought in an era where the overwhelming majority of the top contenders were white. A better ****ogy would be if Holmes had fought most of the top black contenders but drawn the colour line against Gerry ****ey if he had actualy been good.

Look at the rankings from Dempsey's era.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:57 PM   #36
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
How did Willard prove he had an "all time chin"?
He was never off his feet before he fought Dempsey and he was matched prety hard from the start.

Quote:
Willard was totally open against Dempsey, with a very limited ****nal. Patterson would land at him at will
Like he would against Vitally Klitschko who is open and has a limited ****nal?

You have to be realistic here.

Quote:
and even though he wasn't at Dempsey's level as a puncher, he packed a nice wallop. I don't see Willard landing too much on him, either. Under the ruleset of 1919 it would turn out very bloody indeed for Willard.
The bottom line is that Patterson dosnt hit hard enough to stop Willard and probably can't hurt him. He might have his moments but he is going to be coming in towards a much bigger heavyweight with comparable power to Johansen and Liston and it the fight is scheduled for 15 rounds or more he is highly likley to come unstuck.

Again you have to be realistic here.

Whatever som people her might try to make out Willard is a verry big worrld class heavyweight with top end power and durability and he is not without his refiniments.

This is not going to be an easy asignement for an offensivley orientated light heavyweight however fast or powerfull he is.

Quote:
And Patterson's questionable chin stood up for everyone except Liston and Ingo. Dempsey's stood up for everyone except Flynn.
Dempsey did not have the luxury of a long amateur career before he turned profesional and good managment from the outset.

The reality is that after the dubious knockout loss to Flyn nobody ever stopped Dempsey and for all we know nobody stopped him before.

Quote:
I respect your knowledge Janitor, but I actually thinks it's you who is naive here. How in earth would Willard stand up to Patterson's speed and skill? The Archie Moore of 1956 was far superior to the Willard of 1919, but...
Would you extend the same logic to say that Patterson or Moore could beat one of the Klitschko brothers?

Whatever anybody says, once you cut through the bad footage of Willard and look at what is actualy there he is not a lot more limited than they are.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:20 PM   #37
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

[quote=janitor;4377416]
Quote:

How so?

Norton had seen better days and not everybody agrees that it was a convincing win (one of your criteria).

Witherspood did not do enough to difarentiate himself from Dempsey's best oponents on paper and again it was a controvertial win.

If I held up some fighter on Dempsey's record with Conneys record vs curently ranked opposition he would be imidiately dismissed as a nobody.

The Mercer win is awsome given the circumstances but his limitations are obvious.

All of these guys were either beaten controvertialy or are only ranked above people Dempsey beat based on theoretical potential that they did not realise in the ring.



Not really.

The reality is that Dempsey fought in an era where the overwhelming majority of the top contenders were white. A better ****ogy would be if Holmes had fought most of the top black contenders but drawn the colour line against Gerry ****ey if he had actualy been good.

Look at the rankings from Dempsey's era.
While you do have some points, I think I can sum up my opinion by adressing this last one. THOSE RANKINGS DOESN'T MEAN MUCH BECAUSE THEY WERE TO A LARGE DEGREE A PRODUCT OF THE VERY DISCRIMINATION THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DISPROVE.

Either you believe this, or you believe that black fighters magically improved in a heartbeat after WWII. If there were rankings in baseball, american football and baskeball in the 1920's how many blacks would be found on them? Is that also because blacks somehow was much inferior athletes compared to today, or because they were discriminated against in a very racist society? Come on, don't insult our collective intelligence.

The very unlevel playing field that was the reality of Dempsey's time means that very much is unanswered about the quality of many fighters. Greb being one of the main exceptions concerning white fighters.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

[quote=janitor;4377518]
Quote:

He was never off his feet before he fought Dempsey and he was matched prety hard from the start.



Like he would against Vitally Klitschko who is open and has a limited ****nal?

You have to be realistic here.
Willard didn't prove his chin against anyone even remotely close to Lewis in terms of power and precision.



Quote:
The bottom line is that Patterson dosnt hit hard enough to stop Willard and probably can't hurt him. He might have his moments but he is going to be coming in towards a much bigger heavyweight with comparable power to Johansen and Liston and it the fight is scheduled for 15 rounds or more he is highly likley to come unstuck.

Again you have to be realistic here.

Whatever som people her might try to make out Willard is a verry big worrld class heavyweight with top end power and durability and he is not without his refiniments.
I don't think as highly of his power as you do. And his skills, as shown against Dempsey, are very unimpressive. With those skills he wouldn't land on Patterson to begin with. And Willard hasn't, unlike Vitaly K, stood up to the shots of anyone as sharp a puncher as Patterson. Patterson on the other hand have stood up to punchers that are in all likelyhood much more dangerous than Willard. Ali KO'd some very, very durable guys, but couldn't KO Patterson. Machen, Moore, Quarry and Bonavena were no slouches either.

Quote:
Dempsey did not have the luxury of a long amateur career before he turned profesional and good managment from the outset.

The reality is that after the dubious knockout loss to Flyn nobody ever stopped Dempsey and for all we know nobody stopped him before.
Nothing is dubios about that KO except for some unsubstianted rumblings (has Bert Sugar decided on whether he was starving or if it was a fix?). In practicality you could say he was KO'd by Firpo as well.

Quote:
Would you extend the same logic to say that Patterson or Moore could beat one of the Klitschko brothers?

Whatever anybody says, once you cut through the bad footage of Willard and look at what is actualy there he is not a lot more limited than they are.
See above.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:39 PM   #39
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
How did Willard prove he had an "all time chin"?

Willard was totally open against Dempsey, with a very limited ****nal. Patterson would land at him at will, and even though he wasn't at Dempsey's level as a puncher, he packed a nice wallop. I don't see Willard landing too much on him, either. Under the ruleset of 1919 it would turn out very bloody indeed for Willard.

And Patterson's questionable chin stood up for everyone except Liston and Ingo. Dempsey's stood up for everyone except Flynn.

I respect your knowledge Janitor, but I actually thinks it's you who is naive here. How in earth would Willard stand up to Patterson's speed and skill? The Archie Moore of 1956 was far superior to the Willard of 1919, but...
Gun boat Smith a very hard puncher commented on Willards chin, he said it was top class.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:52 PM   #40
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

[quote=Bokaj;4377671]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post

While you do have some points, I think I can sum up my opinion by adressing this last one. THOSE RANKINGS DOESN'T MEAN MUCH BECAUSE THEY WERE TO A LARGE DEGREE A PRODUCT OF THE VERY DISCRIMINATION THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DISPROVE.

Either you believe this, or you believe that black fighters magically improved in a heartbeat after WWII. If there were rankings in baseball, american football and baskeball in the 1920's how many blacks would be found on them? Is that also because blacks somehow was much inferior athletes compared to today, or because they were discriminated against in a very racist society? Come on, don't insult our collective intelligence.

The very unlevel playing field that was the reality of Dempsey's time means that very much is unanswered about the quality of many fighters. Greb being one of the main exceptions concerning white fighters.
Here I have to disagree.

The lower weight classes were wide open for black contenders in Dempsey's era and had been for some years. You still had white domination across the weight classes on weight of numbers.

It is not so much that black boxers improved after world war II as that the number of white men choosing boxing as a career declined dramaticaly owing to improving living standards.

Simply put boxing will always be dominated by the social groups who are at the bottom of the pile and in the 1920s being of Irish, or Jewish extraction was not a much better hand than being black. You didn't get lynched but you were still going to be dirt poor unless you were a good boxer or baseball player.
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:15 PM   #41
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post

It is not so much that black boxers improved after world war II as that the number of white men choosing boxing as a career declined dramaticaly owing to improving living standards.

Simply put boxing will always be dominated by the social groups who are at the bottom of the pile and in the 1920s being of Irish, or Jewish extraction was not a much better hand than being black. You didn't get lynched but you were still going to be dirt poor unless you were a good boxer or baseball player.
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Old 06-29-2009, 09:16 PM   #42
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

[quote=janitor;4377911]
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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post

Here I have to disagree.

The lower weight classes were wide open for black contenders in Dempsey's era and had been for some years. You still had white domination across the weight classes on weight of numbers.

It is not so much that black boxers improved after world war II as that the number of white men choosing boxing as a career declined dramaticaly owing to improving living standards.

Simply put boxing will always be dominated by the social groups who are at the bottom of the pile and in the 1920s being of Irish, or Jewish extraction was not a much better hand than being black. You didn't get lynched but you were still going to be dirt poor unless you were a good boxer or baseball player.
To put it politely, this is bull.

To start with the fighters of the 40's and early 50's got into boxing before WWII. And even during the 40's and 50's guys like Walcott and Moore had a very hard way getting title shots, and Burley etc didn't even get them. You think they would have these problems being white?

In the 20's there was a clearly stated colour line in the HW division, the US was a very racist society, which was mirrored in every major sport (basketball, baseball and football), but this somehow wouldn't be reflected in the HW rankings? Ridicolous.

And if racism wasn't rife in sports, why was all the other major sports being totally dominated by whites, which they aren't today? Isn't it a pretty solid guess to say that boxing have had similar trajectory in racial terms to all other main American sports, or is it especially open minded?
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Old 06-29-2009, 09:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Gun boat Smith a very hard puncher commented on Willards chin, he said it was top class.
So if a LHW today swore to the solidity of the chin of a HW he had fought we would put what value in that? Ruiz must have been a monster, taking Jones' best shots like that.
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Old 06-29-2009, 09:54 PM   #44
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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And if racism wasn't rife in sports, why was all the other major sports being totally dominated by whites, which they aren't today? Isn't it a pretty solid guess to say that boxing have had similar trajectory in racial terms to all other main American sports, or is it especially open minded?
Maybe because.... white people played sports more back then? Lots have changed in sports. In some sports there is significant prejudice against white athletes, like in basketball and the skills positions in football. As Janitor already pointed out, the ghettoes were chock full of whites back then, which resulted in a greater number of white athletes with the necessary temperament. This isn't very hard to understand.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:38 AM   #45
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Default Re: Could Jack Dempsey Knock Out Sonny Liston?

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Bummy, why dont you have an avatar for yourself ? Just curious.

I tried to put one on once and it did not work, so I left it alone...I have no patience sometimes
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