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View Poll Results: Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis by KO 10 28.57%
Rocky Marciano by KO 16 45.71%
Joe Louis by Decision 9 25.71%
Rocky Marciano by Decision 0 0%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-07-2009, 05:21 PM   #31
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Yes, Louis adjusted in the rematch. He always adjust and puts up a better performance and brings a better gameplan. Louis was a master at this. Maybe out of 2 fights Louis wins 1, but that's not what I'm asking.
No, it's not what you're asking, but I wanted to be sure you had seen that rematch. If a peaking Marciano had been one of Joe's first opponents after Godoy II, Rocky may have found himself in for a long trial. Godoy II is critical for me, because it proved Louis could dismantle an opponent while continually giving ground.

Marciano came right out and said he didn't like the way Charles crowded him in their first match, preferring to have some room to launch his bombs. While neither of them may have liked getting smothered, I think the Louis of Godoy II may have been better with the short punches inside than any version of Rocky.

When on top of his game, Joe absorbed some massive shots from Galento and the Baer brothers. It also took a long time for Schmeling to finally put him away when he was undertrained. Walcott needed one punch to take the title from Charles, but Louis got up from three of those bombs. I don't see Rocky blasting out a younger Bomber faster, regardless of what Goldman suggested. Joe tried standing up to Marciano a good deal more than I believe he would have had he younger and fresher legs underneath him. His mobility in the early going against Max Baer was also credible.

Personally, I'm not convinced of who would win in a prime for prime first time matchup. (I have not decided to vote in this poll, and don't know if I'll eventually commit myself to any of the four options.) To me, one of the great ironies of Manila is that Ali stopped Frazier precisely because Muhammad WAS past his peak. If Smoke had challenged him in 1968 or 1969, I believe it would have gone the distance with neither man absorbing a fraction of what both absorbed in the FOTC and Manila. Given that, maybe Goldman did have a revealing insight after all, despite my reservations.

Rocky would have had a lot to deal with though, between the jabs, hooks, uppercuts and bodyshots a peak Louis could deliver, on top of what many experts consider the best right cross of any heavyweight. Marciano was not a master of most of the tactics that Pastor, Conn and Walcott troubled Louis with. (I actually don't put that much credence in Louis-Conn I, as Joe weakened himself by foolishly listening to the reporters who convinced him to come in light, for speed. A stronger Louis would have slowed Conn down faster with a more effective body attack. That Pastor and Walcott gave him difficulty with similar methods over a period of a decade is more interesting to me.)
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Old 07-07-2009, 05:40 PM   #32
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 View Post
Think there about even, in comp.

I mean is Walcott or Charles any worse than the Buddy Baers, Max Baers, Jack Sharkeys and Primo Carneras??
Louis didnt beat better guys, for the most part they were about even.

Not sure if Louis scored more deadlier knockouts, He never left a foe in the shape Rocky left poor Vingo.

And its not just Walcott, people that fought them BOTH said the Rock hit harder with 1 punch than Louis did with 5.

Louis is the better finisher, but he is NOT the power puncher that Marciano is punch for punch. Louis hardly if ever scored a one punch knockout, Outside of Braddock.
They was no where near even in competition. Keep in mind that Marciano had fought Charles and Walcott( outside of Moorer, is Marciano's two best wins) AFTER Louis had fought them and Joe was also past his prime. Explain how their competition was even when Louis already fought Charles and Walcott, and other champions like Schmelling, Baer, Braddock, Conn( light heavyweight champion, however still dangerous regardless of weight class) and other top 10 contenders. Louis fought in a better era.
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Old 07-07-2009, 05:51 PM   #33
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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This is just untrue. Rocky's sparring partner was also a sparring partner for Joe Louis. He said Rocky hit as hard with 1 punch than Joe did with 4.

This is what Jersey Joe Walcott said

Jersey Joe Walcott, who lost his title to Marciano in a 13th round KO and a rematch in a 1st round KO, was asked who hit harder, Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. "Joe could take you out with combinations...Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could. I have to say, with all respect to Joe, Marciano hit harder."

Marciano could catch you with one punch and just end it. Louis could knock you out with a deadly combination - in terms of power Marciano had the edge... however Joe Louis was the better puncher. Louis was more precise a puncher, but one perfectly landed blow would be more deadly for the Rock.
You're going by what sparring partners and opponents said, I'm going by what i actually seen. The fact that Louis's punches were more precise and accurate, added on to it. This is someone who made Max Schmelling scream with a single body punch. As i said above, i look at Marciano as more of an accumulation puncher. No disrespect to Moorer, but do you think he would last as long as he did against Marciano, with Louis?

BORKED
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Old 07-07-2009, 05:57 PM   #34
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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Originally Posted by slicksouthpaw16 View Post
You're going by what sparring partners and opponents said, I'm going by what i actually seen. The fact that Louis's punches were more precise and accurate, added on to it. This is someone who made Max Schmelling scream with a single body punch. As i said above, i look at Marciano as more of an accumulation puncher. No disrespect to Moorer, but do you think he would last as long as he did against Marciano, with Louis?

BORKED
Moore got saved by the bell twice. That version of Marciano was more of an accumulation punch. Marciano had more power, and it shows. One punch devastates, combos take at opponents. Simply look at Walcott v Louis then Marciano v Walcott. One punch and Walcott was lights out. Joe Louis throws bombing combos and Walcott still tries getting up and can't. What do you think?

Film, sparring partners, opponents, and other fighters would agree with me. If it means anything, Dempsey thought Marciano was the hardest puncher he had ever seen. Don't underestimate what speed and precision can do for you. It gets you that much more there to connect that punch. Marciano had more power, Louis just generally landed with it more consistently.

Great video also, but look at how many times most guys can get up. One punch, Layne out. One punch, Walcott out. And basically it was one big uppercut that had Louis completely defenseless (And it was one left hook to knock Louis down). Rocky's power ruined some fighters careers. They really weren't the same. He broke blood vessels in LaStarza's arm.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:06 PM   #35
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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No, it's not what you're asking, but I wanted to be sure you had seen that rematch. If a peaking Marciano had been one of Joe's first opponents after Godoy II, Rocky may have found himself in for a long trial. Godoy II is critical for me, because it proved Louis could dismantle an opponent while continually giving ground.

Marciano came right out and said he didn't like the way Charles crowded him in their first match, preferring to have some room to launch his bombs. While neither of them may have liked getting smothered, I think the Louis of Godoy II may have been better with the short punches inside than any version of Rocky.

When on top of his game, Joe absorbed some massive shots from Galento and the Baer brothers. It also took a long time for Schmeling to finally put him away when he was undertrained. Walcott needed one punch to take the title from Charles, but Louis got up from three of those bombs. I don't see Rocky blasting out a younger Bomber faster, regardless of what Goldman suggested. Joe tried standing up to Marciano a good deal more than I believe he would have had he younger and fresher legs underneath him. His mobility in the early going against Max Baer was also credible.

Personally, I'm not convinced of who would win in a prime for prime first time matchup. (I have not decided to vote in this poll, and don't know if I'll eventually commit myself to any of the four options.) To me, one of the great ironies of Manila is that Ali stopped Frazier precisely because Muhammad WAS past his peak. If Smoke had challenged him in 1968 or 1969, I believe it would have gone the distance with neither man absorbing a fraction of what both absorbed in the FOTC and Manila. Given that, maybe Goldman did have a revealing insight after all, despite my reservations.

Rocky would have had a lot to deal with though, between the jabs, hooks, uppercuts and bodyshots a peak Louis could deliver, on top of what many experts consider the best right cross of any heavyweight. Marciano was not a master of most of the tactics that Pastor, Conn and Walcott troubled Louis with. (I actually don't put that much credence in Louis-Conn I, as Joe weakened himself by foolishly listening to the reporters who convinced him to come in light, for speed. A stronger Louis would have slowed Conn down faster with a more effective body attack. That Pastor and Walcott gave him difficulty with similar methods over a period of a decade is more interesting to me.)
I'm going to try to get my hands on the rematch fight. You're making me consider omitting my selection. Still, can't solidly agree with the inside part. Yes, Joe was great on the inside and you can see him take it in 51 in their match Joe gets some good short shots right when Marciano was getting in. But that 67 inch reach was used to great way once he was IN there against Louis. Charles was a different fighter, and Rocky was ever so slightly altered then too. I do believe that Rocky goes far more to the body and is far more of an inside crowding bomber against a taller opponent like a Louis. It's just more natural in a matchup like that. What else could he do? Bomb at mid-range? I don't think so. As Teddy Atlas said, "Marciano did what he had to with an old Louis. He crowded him, didn't give him space and didn't let him use his experience. He suffocated him and worn him down."
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:18 PM   #36
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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I'm going to try to get my hands on the rematch fight. You're making me consider omitting my selection.
Good. I think it's still available on-line (though I haven't looked for it in a while). I don't want to convince you that a primed Louis beats Marciano, just persuade you to make the best informed guess you can produce on your own.
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Old 07-07-2009, 10:35 PM   #37
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

I love how Rocky fans love to take the Walcott comment, which was on that talk show we have all seen, as iron clad proof other than the prime time compromise it was .. No one seems to mention that Walcott fought a prime Marciano and an already in decline Louis. In fact, the Walcott rematch was one of Louis' last decisive KO victories. His legs were going and a lot of his power with them. Walcott never fought the prime Louis who destroyed the iron chinned Max Bear or who bounced 250 plus pound Abe Simon or Buddy Baer around like rubber balls ... again no disrespect to Rocky who was a terrific hitter but I personally feel Louis was a much harder puncher than Marciano. Marciano himself commented on Louis' complete lack of power when they fought and he was lucky as it still took him eight rounds to do the job and he still came out looking like he was busted up ...
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:43 PM   #38
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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They was no where near even in competition. Keep in mind that Marciano had fought Charles and Walcott( outside of Moorer, is Marciano's two best wins) AFTER Louis had fought them and Joe was also past his prime. Explain how their competition was even when Louis already fought Charles and Walcott, and other champions like Schmelling, Baer, Braddock, Conn( light heavyweight champion, however still dangerous regardless of weight class) and other top 10 contenders. Louis fought in a better era.

Louis didnt beat Charles.

There about even, Moore is a better lightheavyweight AND heavyweight than Conn.

Baer, both of em lack skills, sure they can hit, but they were left open for Louis's punchings, no defense. Schmeling is not as good as Charles or Walcott imo.

Braddock was a jouryman, good story but dont make him out better than Marciano's comp.
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:49 PM   #39
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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I love how Rocky fans love to take the Walcott comment, which was on that talk show we have all seen, as iron clad proof other than the prime time compromise it was .. No one seems to mention that Walcott fought a prime Marciano and an already in decline Louis. In fact, the Walcott rematch was one of Louis' last decisive KO victories. His legs were going and a lot of his power with them. Walcott never fought the prime Louis who destroyed the iron chinned Max Bear or who bounced 250 plus pound Abe Simon or Buddy Baer around like rubber balls ... again no disrespect to Rocky who was a terrific hitter but I personally feel Louis was a much harder puncher than Marciano. Marciano himself commented on Louis' complete lack of power when they fought and he was lucky as it still took him eight rounds to do the job and he still came out looking like he was busted up ...
Louis was a much harder puncher? People on ESB sometimes don't even try being objective.

Source on that last comment. Joe Louis said in his prime he wouldn't have beaten Marciano and he also said Marciano beats all past fighters in the radio calls prior to the Superfight.
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:50 PM   #40
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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Oh come on.

He was a hell of a lot closer to his prime than Louis was to his. Rocky was young, hungry and undefeated.
Louis was an old man scratching around for motivation and a payday.

Look at the Louis fight, than take a look at the LarSarza rematch- the Archie Moore fight.

Rocky improve a LOT, he was better defense, LarSarza hardly had no opening with his jab and counters. Same with Archie Moore outside of the flash knockdown.

Rocky was a lot less defenses minded in the Louis fight, I would not call that prime Marciano.
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Old 07-07-2009, 11:53 PM   #41
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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I love how Rocky fans love to take the Walcott comment, which was on that talk show we have all seen, as iron clad proof other than the prime time compromise it was .. No one seems to mention that Walcott fought a prime Marciano and an already in decline Louis. In fact, the Walcott rematch was one of Louis' last decisive KO victories. His legs were going and a lot of his power with them. Walcott never fought the prime Louis who destroyed the iron chinned Max Bear or who bounced 250 plus pound Abe Simon or Buddy Baer around like rubber balls ... again no disrespect to Rocky who was a terrific hitter but I personally feel Louis was a much harder puncher than Marciano. Marciano himself commented on Louis' complete lack of power when they fought and he was lucky as it still took him eight rounds to do the job and he still came out looking like he was busted up ...

Louis got all thsos impressive kos with his speed and timing. I feel Baer CHOOSE to stay down, and not fight on. Not saying he cant hit, he could hit. But punch for punch, Marciano hit harder.

Once Louis lost his speed in his comeback fights, I think fans saw how much Louis lost in terms of power because of the lack of hand speed. Foreman was still a puncher at 45, and didnt relie on hand of speed to deliver the punch.

Louis did.
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:02 AM   #42
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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I love how Rocky fans love to take the Walcott comment, which was on that talk show we have all seen, as iron clad proof other than the prime time compromise it was .. No one seems to mention that Walcott fought a prime Marciano and an already in decline Louis. In fact, the Walcott rematch was one of Louis' last decisive KO victories. His legs were going and a lot of his power with them. Walcott never fought the prime Louis who destroyed the iron chinned Max Bear or who bounced 250 plus pound Abe Simon or Buddy Baer around like rubber balls ... again no disrespect to Rocky who was a terrific hitter but I personally feel Louis was a much harder puncher than Marciano. Marciano himself commented on Louis' complete lack of power when they fought and he was lucky as it still took him eight rounds to do the job and he still came out looking like he was busted up ...

Power is the last thing to leave a fighter, therefore your conclusions make no sense at all. Also you say joe had lost of alot of power by 1947, but this is in fact BS, considering louis kept himself sharp during the war years with hundreds of exhibitions, then looked as good a puncher as he ever did knocking out # 1 rated tami mauriello in 1 round and billy conn with a devastating 3 punch combo in 8 rounds...I think Louis looked absolutley terrific all the way thru 1948.
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:39 AM   #43
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

Marciano's unbreakable will would go along way in breaking him down. When Louis was at his very best he was an unrivalled trash compactor; targets that marched into his space got crunched up.

There is of course that special element of Marciano that deters him from the Godoy's of the ring, the stylistic quirks that would most certainly help him rattle the Bomber, but is it not so that this fight just strikes you as 'the one who does the most damage first wins?'.

At first and last glance, there is that stirring feeling that the economical destructiveness of Louis would haunt Rocky to his doom, but inbetween the sureness it's hard to cast aside a man whose perseverance to fit into a fight was insane. Ted Spoon is not just talking about marching forward and never saying die, Rocky would stoop his head and swing his arms to an incalculable rhythm, experimenting like all the true greats, presenting new barriers in spilt second intervals.

Then there is that last feeling again; Louis, with his arms in nice n' tight, sticking a cold jab and measuring the oncoming warrior with packages of high-impact hell.

Louis; probably, mid-late round TKO.
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:48 AM   #44
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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Perhaps too much is being made of Louis' so-called 'weakness' against swarmers. He fought a shitload of fighters of various styles and won against all but three, only one of which was against a swarmer type opponent and he was old to boot.

Simply because one or two guys gave him a few problems doesn't necessarily mean he had a weakness against a swarming style. Maybe he didn't enjoy fighting them, but to call it an actual weakness is stretching things, imo.

Rocky is a great swarmer though, especially the Rocky of later years, so there is definitely a chance he could beat Louis. He was a great fighter.

I'd still lean in a bit Louis' direction though. As a faded fighter he was doing alright against The Rock, and his jab opened cuts around Rocky's eyes.
I can only see a prime Louis doing much better.
Louis himself said he would not have beaten Marciano, because part of his weakness was being crowded. While fighters sometimes say things like that in defeat, I think there is some truth to it. I also think Louis is rather slow footed and porous on defense.

On the other hand Marciano never fought a puncher anywhere near a prime Joe Louis class. If Walcott could floor Marciano and have him holding on for dear life ( See round 11 of their first match ), I think Louis could do a bit more. When Louis had his man hurt, he was an excellent finisher.

This match could go either way. I'll go with Louis as it often took Rocky a while to warm up.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:40 PM   #45
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Default Re: Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

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Louis was a much harder puncher? People on ESB sometimes don't even try being objective.

Source on that last comment. Joe Louis said in his prime he wouldn't have beaten Marciano and he also said Marciano beats all past fighters in the radio calls prior to the Superfight.

Both fighters were very complimentary and respectful to each before and after their careers.

Louis once said he wished he was a few years younger and didn't have to come out of retirement to take on Rocky and would have done better if he had his youth and speed.

You are right in the sense that I don't recall Louis ever saying that he could beat Marciano, but he did suggest that it might have been different a few years back. At the same time, Marciano said he was lucky that he didn't have to fight a prime Lewis.
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