Prime Joe Louis Beats Rocky Marciano --- Convince Me

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Moore got saved by the bell twice. That version of Marciano was more of an accumulation punch. Marciano had more power, and it shows. One punch devastates, combos take at opponents. Simply look at Walcott v Louis then Marciano v Walcott. One punch and Walcott was lights out. Joe Louis throws bombing combos and Walcott still tries getting up and can't. What do you think?

Film, sparring partners, opponents, and other fighters would agree with me. If it means anything, Dempsey thought Marciano was the hardest puncher he had ever seen. Don't underestimate what speed and precision can do for you. It gets you that much more there to connect that punch. Marciano had more power, Louis just generally landed with it more consistently.

Great video also, but look at how many times most guys can get up. One punch, Layne out. One punch, Walcott out. And basically it was one big uppercut that had Louis completely defenseless (And it was one left hook to knock Louis down). Rocky's power ruined some fighters careers. They really weren't the same. He broke blood vessels in LaStarza's arm.

Then again you could look at the Lee Savold fights. Old Joe bombs Savold out with one left hook while Marciano throws everything at him and can't get him down.

You could also say that Randy Turpin was a harder puncher than Marciano (ridiculous, I know) based on this logic, since he knocked Cockell down and out with one punch.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Then again you could look at the Lee Savold fights. Old Joe bombs Savold out with one left hook while Marciano throws everything at him and can't get him down.

You could also say that Randy Turpin was a harder puncher than Marciano (ridiculous, I know) based on this logic, since he knocked Cockell down and out with one punch.

There will always be examples to throw this or that off. But when looking at the consistency of things it's pretty clear to be that Marciano was the harder puncher. People are just under-emphasizing what precision could do for Joe. And the speed in some of those combos.

[he grant]

While we are quoting what fighters said, here was Moore's bottom line on Marciano ..."When people ask me who was the best I ever fought , I say Rocky because that is what THEY want to hear. I was in my forties when we fought...It wasn't, it was Charley Burley. I simply give them what they want to hear."

Now let's hear the usual suspects spin this one ...

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by he grant

While we are quoting what fighters said, here was Moore's bottom line on Marciano ..."When people ask me who was the best I ever fought , I say Rocky because that is what THEY want to hear. I was in my forties when we fought...It wasn't, it was Charley Burley. I simply give them what they want to hear."

Now let's hear the usual suspects spin this one ...

Sounds about right. It's even higher praise that he thought Burley was better than Charles than that he was better than Marciano, though. I'd suppose that most have Charles over Marciano in a p4p rating.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by WhataRock

This is the most compelling arguement I have seen regarding that fight.

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Now you are supposed to say ," I rest my case".

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

No, it's not what you're asking, but I wanted to be sure you had seen that rematch. If a peaking Marciano had been one of Joe's first opponents after Godoy II, Rocky may have found himself in for a long trial. Godoy II is critical for me, because it proved Louis could dismantle an opponent while continually giving ground.

Marciano came right out and said he didn't like the way Charles crowded him in their first match, preferring to have some room to launch his bombs. While neither of them may have liked getting smothered, I think the Louis of Godoy II may have been better with the short punches inside than any version of Rocky.

When on top of his game, Joe absorbed some massive shots from Galento and the Baer brothers. It also took a long time for Schmeling to finally put him away when he was undertrained. Walcott needed one punch to take the title from Charles, but Louis got up from three of those bombs. I don't see Rocky blasting out a younger Bomber faster, regardless of what Goldman suggested. Joe tried standing up to Marciano a good deal more than I believe he would have had he younger and fresher legs underneath him. His mobility in the early going against Max Baer was also credible.

Personally, I'm not convinced of who would win in a prime for prime first time matchup. (I have not decided to vote in this poll, and don't know if I'll eventually commit myself to any of the four options.) To me, one of the great ironies of Manila is that Ali stopped Frazier precisely because Muhammad WAS past his peak. If Smoke had challenged him in 1968 or 1969, I believe it would have gone the distance with neither man absorbing a fraction of what both absorbed in the FOTC and Manila. Given that, maybe Goldman did have a revealing insight after all, despite my reservations.

Rocky would have had a lot to deal with though, between the jabs, hooks, uppercuts and bodyshots a peak Louis could deliver, on top of what many experts consider the best right cross of any heavyweight. Marciano was not a master of most of the tactics that Pastor, Conn and Walcott troubled Louis with. (I actually don't put that much credence in Louis-Conn I, as Joe weakened himself by foolishly listening to the reporters who convinced him to come in light, for speed. A stronger Louis would have slowed Conn down faster with a more effective body attack. That Pastor and Walcott gave him difficulty with similar methods over a period of a decade is more interesting to me.)

This is a very perceptive post
Louis was weight drained for Conn,and when he fought Marciano had only the remnants of his jab and a few left hooks to keep Rocky off ,Louis did not launch his right because his reflexes were shot.
"I saw the openings but I couldnt get off".

[he grant]

Goldman's comments is one of the comments trainers make on behalf of their fighters to justify wins over shot former big names ... what else was he gonna say, whe beat the shell of Louis ?

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Dempsey1238

Look at the Louis fight, than take a look at the LarSarza rematch- the Archie Moore fight.

Rocky improve a LOT, he was better defense, LarSarza hardly had no opening with his jab and counters. Same with Archie Moore outside of the flash knockdown.

Rocky was a lot less defenses minded in the Louis fight, I would not call that prime Marciano.

Again, he was still a hell of a lot closer to his prime than Louis was to his. There is nothing more to say on the matter.

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Power is the last thing to leave a fighter,

Generally yes, but it would be foolish to have that written in stone.

[he grant]

My understanding on Marciano was that he was actually a bigger puncher when he fought Louis than later in his career as he was continusly improving on technique and as a result shortened his swing ... improved accuracy but perhaps a slight loss in power as result ....


Power is the last thing is a boxing expression but it depends on the fighter ... Louis said his Maurillo fight was his last good fight ... his legs were not the same and he was not able to punch with the same authority ... look at his comeback ... he was winning fights and stopping some guys but very few knockdowns .. he simply was no where near the same ...

[groove]

it's no good having the power if you haven't got the peak speed and reflexes to make/take your opportunities.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

Generally yes, but it would be foolish to have that written in stone.

In his last 4 fights before meeting Marciano ,Louis had one stoppage win ,over Lee Savold ,who was himself ,nearly 35.
Louis said BEFORE the Marciano fight ,"my right hand dont leave me no more".his reflexes were eroded.

[JIm Broughton]

I have a hard time seeing Rocky beating a prime Louis. The hand speed, power and precise combination punching would be too much for Rocky. The Louis that Rocky beat threw one punch at a time. His reflexes were shot as were his legs. A prime Louis on the other hand would bring his full arsenal to bear and that would more than Rocky could handle. As much as I love Marciano I've always felt that he was somewhat fortunate to have come along when he did. The great fighters he fought were getting along in age and were not in thier primes anymore though still formidable and the bigger faster type of HW would come around after he retired. Louis was one of the former. A young fast Louis would win in my opinion.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by mcvey

In his last 4 fights before meeting Marciano ,Louis had one stoppage win ,over Lee Savold ,who was himself ,nearly 35.
Louis said BEFORE the Marciano fight ,"my right hand dont leave me no more".his reflexes were eroded.

It's easy to see in the Louis-Marciano fight that Louis possessed none of his previous punching ability. He got by for 6 rounds with his left jab only, may have even been even on the scorecards at that point, but he had nothing left by the last couple of rounds.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

It's easy to see in the Louis-Marciano fight that Louis possessed none of his previous punching ability. He got by for 6 rounds with his left jab only, may have even been even on the scorecards at that point, but he had nothing left by the last couple of rounds.

You are correct Sir,and he still marked Rocky up with what was left of his jab.