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Old 09-07-2007, 09:05 AM   #1
Luigi1985
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Default Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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What were the 5 best fighters and why?
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

Billy Miske is by far the best fighter listed but I do not consider him a white hope. I will therfore say-

1. Gunboat Smith (again not necisarily a white hope)
2. Fred Fulton
3. Luther McCarthy
4. Sandy Ferguson
5. Arthur Pelkey
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:51 AM   #3
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

The 5 White Fighters who i think had the best chance to beat Johnson:

1. Marvin Hart - I have no idea why matchmakers did not make Johnson v Hart as the first or second title defence for Johnson. It would have been a massive fight and Hart was a massive chance.

2. Gunboat Smith - Seemed to be the best credentialled of the lot, althought i personally think that Jack had too much for him at any stage.

3. James Jeffries - As shot as he was, i am fairly certain he was the best chance of beating Johnson. A couple of tuneups and signing the fight a year or two earlier would have made things interesting.

4. Fred Fulton - Bit of a modern type fighter. Plenty of strength, size and power but an average chin. If he landed (doubtful) he could have done some damage.

5. Luther McCarthy - Seems to be very highly rated, though i dont see it from looking at his results. He had a chance to beat johnson, but i think he would be outclassed.

It would be very interesting to have seen how Burns, Ketchell and an ancient (but not injured) Fitzsimmons would have went against the above 5 fighters.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
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What were the 5 best fighters and why?
Smith
Fulton
Macarty
Ferguson
Moran
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Old 09-08-2007, 08:08 AM   #5
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

None of you has seen any of them fight.
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Old 09-08-2007, 08:25 AM   #6
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by Ramon Rojo
None of you has seen any of them fight.
You can see Willard, and Moran on flim. My best five " white hopes " while Johnson was champion ( 1908-1915 ) were:

1. Gunboat Smith
2. Jess Willard
3. Jack Dillion
4. Luther McCarty
5. Jack O'Brien

Smith and Dillion deserved a shot for sure. Either man would have made a good account for himself at the minimum vs Johnson in a title shot.

O'Brien looked to be even or slightly the better in a 6 round match with Johnson, but never got a re-match which is why I list him here.

McCarty died young. Some felt he had the best potential of the bunch. I think he is a trifle over rated.

Of course Willard took advantage of an older Johnson and ended the " white hope " era.

The white hopes from 1908-1915 were not totaly void of talent. In truth the best of the bunch did not get title shots, asside from O'Brien who did no worse than draw with Johnson, and Willard who knocked him out.

Last edited by Zakman; 06-07-2006 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
You can see Willard, and Moran on flim. My best five " white hopes " while Johnson was champion ( 1908-1915 ) were:

1. Gunboat Smith
2. Jess Willard
3. Jack Dillion
4. Luther McCarty
5. Jack O'Brien

Smith and Dillion deserved a shot for sure. Either man would have made a good account for himself at the minimum vs Johnson in a title shot.

O'Brien looked to be even or slightly the better in a 6 round match with Johnson, but never got a re-match which is why I list him here.

McCarty died young. Some felt he had the best potential of the bunch. I think he is a trifle over rated.

Of course Willard took advantage of an older Johnson and ended the " white hope " era.

The white hopes from 1908-1915 were not totaly void of talent. In truth the best of the bunch did not get title shots, asside from O'Brien who did no worse than draw with Johnson, and Willard who knocked him out.
Smith had served as Johnson sparring partner and didnt really want to meet Jack for real,After thre Gunboat won the "White Crown",he was asked about a fight with Johnson,he replied "Johnson will wait and the longer he waits the better".Jack Dillon is an underated LH champs ,dubbed the Giant Killer he was a bit small at 5 7to be a real danger to Johnson imo.[Please dont mention the fixed fight between Jack and Ketchel in rebuttal].Johnson came in to the fight with OBrien way out of shape,knowing he could lose only by ko,and what chance was there of that? Johnson strolled around the ring ,griinning while Philadelphia Jack ran for his life,O Brien had no chance of defeating Johnson ,he was kod by Ketchel twice ,was virtually devoid of power and was Johnsons inferior as a boxer,knowing this Jack trained accordingly.
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Old 09-08-2007, 10:14 AM   #8
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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mcvey: Smith had served as Johnson sparring partner and didnt really want to meet Jack for real,After thre Gunboat won the "White Crown",he was asked about a fight with Johnson,he replied "Johnson will wait and the longer he waits the better.
Aside from knocking Johnson out in a sparring session ( a well known sparring story ) , Smith had already beaten Langford, Williard, and Moran by 1913. In addition he beat the weaker " white hopes " that Johnson selected for title shots in Flynn, and Ross. There is not doubt that Smith was too good to get a title shot. He was white all right, but he was not a " hope " If there was a Ring ranking system, I dare say Smith based off the Langford win at one point would be the #1 contender! What Gunboat said while Johnson hired him as a sparring partner means nothing. Fighters don't bite the hand that feeds them.

Quote:
Jack Dillon is an underated LH champs ,dubbed the Giant Killer he was a bit small at 5 7to be a real danger to Johnson imo.[Please dont mention the fixed fight between Jack and Ketchel in rebuttal].
Dillion was the same weight as Langford and O'Brien. He was near the sameweight of Flynn, and bigger then Ketchel. To say Dillion was too small while other Johnson’s title opponents were not is baloney. Dillion was tough as nails, and accomplished. Johnson could have selected him for a title opponent but didn't. As for Ketchel, Johnson nearly got starched by a crude, but hard hitting middle weight. The story of the pre-arranged fix was Johnson's to avoid embarrassment, and a story that came up after Ketchel's death.

Quote:
Johnson came in to the fight with OBrien way out of shape,knowing he could lose only by ko,and what chance was there of that? Johnson strolled around the ring ,griinning while Philadelphia Jack ran for his life,O Brien had no chance of defeating Johnson ,he was kod by Ketchel twice ,was virtually devoid of power and was Johnsons inferior as a boxer,knowing this Jack trained accordingly.
And this is absolute bunk. What type of title fight is this? Johnson looked bad vs O'Brien period. Johnson may have got a ND or draw if you prefer, but he did not look good, and he never gave O'Brien a re-match either. O’Brein quick hands and feet gave Johnson a great deal of trouble. O’Brien was not a stationary fighter for Johnson to clinch & uppercut to death.

Last edited by Mendoza; 09-08-2007 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 09-08-2007, 03:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

I will take your points
1.You say Smith kod Johnson,he didnt he put him throught the ropes when sparring with him at the SealRock House ,in preparation for Johnsons"fight " with Ketchel.
2 You say Smith was probably the best of the hope then,if you looked at my originalpost you would see that I rated him no1
3.You say Smiths commen t that "Johnson can wait",can be dismissed as a "dont bite the hand that feeds you "remark from an employee,no true,Smith made that comment just after beat Pelkey for the White Title in 1914.Smith served briefly as Johnsons sparring partner in 1909 5 years before ,wrong again!
4You picked me up on my comment that Dillon was a little tto small for Johnson at 5 7 1/2,you said,[as if I didnt know] that Langford and Ketchel were that size,Langford fought Johnsonand got a hiding ,as well he should,"Johnson gave me the only real beating I ever took ,I take my hat off to him,though I was greatly out weighed"Sam Langford,Johnson floore d Langford twice.
You say the Ketchel Johnson fight was on the level,not true,the fight was aranged between Johnson and Willus |Britt Ketchels manager to let Ketchel go the distance,my sources?Gunboat Smiths interview,,Fleischers "the Heavyweight Championship" Gerald Susters"Champions of the Ring"Randy Roberts well researched and acclaimed "Papa Jack"
wrong once again.
5. I stated that Johnson knowing that the OBrien fight was a no decision 6 rounder ,and that he could only lose it by ko ,entered the ring way out of shape and under trained,as the chances of him being kod by the light hitting OBrien were virtually nil,You say Baloney ,I offer these sources.Denzil Batchelors "jack Johnson and His Times" "But Johnson knew that OBrien couldnt punch his way out of a paper bag and hadnt bothered to train before going through the old routine"Randy Roberts on the fight"he entered the ring overweight in poor condition.Rumours spread that he had been drinking the night before,and on the day of the match.It was an uninspired fight.O Briens attack was timid,and Johnsosn defence,and counter attack consisted mainly of laughter He smiled and waved to the crowd,and made no attempt to hide the purpose of his presence.He was there solely for the $5000 gaurantee that and nothing else.O Brien was on the way down when he met a fat untrained Johnson ,there was no reason for a return. Your last remark shows how much you dislike Johnson ,objective you are not.I have disproved your statements without using words like BUnk and Baloney which would be offensive if they wernt so quaint in 2007 .Mendoza ,the man has just counted 10 over you!
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Old 09-08-2007, 04:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

McVey,



1. You omitted what Smith did to Johnson. Convenient of you. I had to bring it up. You say it was just a knock down through ropes. The other story is it was KO, period. Which story is true? Hard to say. What is true was Smith was the best of the white hopes, and Johnson wanted no part of him in a real fight. I’d love to read the context of Smith’s ” I can wait quote “ Surely Gunboat Smith jumps on any chance for the title vs Johnson if Johnson offers it. The money and the fame is too much to say no to. The fact that Smith and quite a few more qualified white hopes never got title shots from Johnson is not brought up by liberal writers who play the white hope card without fully understanding who the best white contenders were.

2. Please prove to me the Ketchel vs Johnson fight was a fix. I’d love to read it. Johnson was known to tell some tall tales. The Ketchel and Willard fights were classic examples. As I said before the story came up after Ketchel died. Convenient, as a dead man can not speak.

3. You were shown up on the Dillon was too small statement. Compared to some of Johnson’s title opponents, he was not. Dillion was clearly better / more dangerous than all the white hopes Johnson fought, save for Willard who knocked him out.


4. Denzil Batchelors’ book and others like it while entertaining often speculate on things to make their subject material appears to be greater / more interesting. Regarding the Johnson vs O’Brien fight, it was a boxing match. Unless Johnson had the judges on the take, he could lose via DQ, or an injury outside of the traditional knock out loss. Being in shape is part of boxing. And who says Johnson was fat and overweight? Can I have a newspaper source here. Box Rec has Johnson at 205 pounds! This is not over weight, McVey. Hardly. In fact this was Johnson’s near peak weight. Box Rec has this to say about the decision. NY Times ruled it a draw; Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought O'Brien the winner by a shade. The fact that the fight was close or with O’Brien being a shade better screams of a re-match. Why was there no re-match? The fight was close.


If you want to agree with me, it is obvious that Johnson failed to fight the best white contenders as Champion. I think you mostly agree with me, but you’re tying to spin it. If you want to disagree, keep counting to ten because the match is over before you get to one.
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Old 09-08-2007, 04:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

Do you refute Smiths recorded staement about the sparring session with Johnson ?I didnt fail to mention it at all .After the sparring when Johnson returned to New York he gave testimony to Smiths punching "theve got a fella back there my god he can knockdown a brick wall " why would I avoid that?Smith was known as a big puncher ,certainly bigger than Johnson.You are turning this into a hate post against Johnson and not being very sublte about it, if you dont rate him fine ! What has that to do with Jeffries ko power?I rate Jack Dillon very highly ,why wouldnt I?I just said he was a little small for Johnson ,you omitted to comment on Randy Roberts statements concerning the OBrien and Kechel fights not convenient?You must be the only poster on here who beleives the Ketchel Johnson fight was on the level ,Ive given you sources including Johnson s own sparring partner for the fight.Watch the fight for heavens sake! youy can see Johnson grab Ketchel and pull him upright,he placed Ketchel where and when he wanted to ,like a doll.I dont mind your petty vendetta ,its reall y rather funny but try and keep on the subject of the post ,and be objective,no more Bunk and Baloney
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:03 PM   #12
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Just like I thought. You offer nothing. Why was Dillion too small for Johnson when he was the heavier than O'Brien, Burns, and Ketchel when Johnson fought them? Humor me....

A writer who was born 50 years after the fight, who never interviewed the fighters or managers can not say it was a fix beyond a shadow of a doubt. It was Randy Roberts slant on the fight just like the guy who wrote the Burns book says Burns broke Johnson ribs in their fight. A historian should not take a writers book as the gospel, he should research the facts. In your case it seems you read what you like to read and omit the rest.

So Johnson played with an out gunned Ketchel and stood him up a bit. Is this something that tells you the fight was a fix? I bet you think it does. I would bait you, but you want no part of a true cross examination so I'll spell it out for you to read. I take it you also watched the Johnson vs Burns fight too. You will notice that Johnson does the same thing to Burns. Now is this a fix too, or only the Ketchel fight? Hmmmm...... And damn, Johnson played a bit with an equally small and out gunned Flynn. Must have been a fix too right?

Those who win and look good doing it in sports need no excuses, but those who lose or look bad vs an inferior opponents in victory ( Like Johnson did vs Ketchel and O'Brien ) often use excuses. Boxing history is full excuses. The fights matter most, not the bunk behind it.
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Just like I thought. You offer nothing. Why was Dillion too small for Johnson when he was the heavier than O'Brien, Burns, and Ketchel when Johnson fought them? Humor me....

A writer who was born 50 years after the fight, who never interviewed the fighters or managers can not say it was a fix beyond a shadow of a doubt. It was Randy Roberts slant on the fight just like the guy who wrote the Burns book says Burns broke Johnson ribs in their fight. A historian should not take a writers book as the gospel, he should research the facts. In your case it seems you read what you like to read and omit the rest.

So Johnson played with an out gunned Ketchel and stood him up a bit. Is this something that tells you the fight was a fix? I bet you think it does. I would bait you, but you want no part of a true cross examination so I'll spell it out for you to read. I take it you also watched the Johnson vs Burns fight too. You will notice that Johnson does the same thing to Burns. Now is this a fix too, or only the Ketchel fight? Hmmmm...... And damn, Johnson played a bit with an equally small and out gunned Flynn. Must have been a fix too right?

Those who win and look good doing it in sports need no excuses, but those who lose or look bad vs an inferior opponents in victory ( Like Johnson did vs Ketchel and O'Brien ) often use excuses. Boxing history is full excuses. The fights matter most, not the bunk behind it.
you didnt answer my question about Smiths statement s that he put Johnson throught the ropes and that the ketchel fight was fixed ,you wanted contemprary sources Ive given you Johnsons sparring partner for the fight in a recorded interview ,verbatim ,you choose to ignore it ,I think Ill do the same with you ,you dissapoint me ,your hatred of Johnson has clouded youyr judgement and made you look foolish.
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Just like I thought. You offer nothing. Why was Dillion too small for Johnson when he was the heavier than O'Brien, Burns, and Ketchel when Johnson fought them? Humor me....

A writer who was born 50 years after the fight, who never interviewed the fighters or managers can not say it was a fix beyond a shadow of a doubt. It was Randy Roberts slant on the fight just like the guy who wrote the Burns book says Burns broke Johnson ribs in their fight. A historian should not take a writers book as the gospel, he should research the facts. In your case it seems you read what you like to read and omit the rest.

So Johnson played with an out gunned Ketchel and stood him up a bit. Is this something that tells you the fight was a fix? I bet you think it does. I would bait you, but you want no part of a true cross examination so I'll spell it out for you to read. I take it you also watched the Johnson vs Burns fight too. You will notice that Johnson does the same thing to Burns. Now is this a fix too, or only the Ketchel fight? Hmmmm...... And damn, Johnson played a bit with an equally small and out gunned Flynn. Must have been a fix too right?

Those who win and look good doing it in sports need no excuses, but those who lose or look bad vs an inferior opponents in victory ( Like Johnson did vs Ketchel and O'Brien ) often use excuses. Boxing history is full excuses. The fights matter most, not the bunk behind it.
Having looked at the footage, it's interesting that Ketchell's punch does not seem to connect with Johnson before the latter goes down. I don't think it's a fix, but it's curious, no?

BORKED
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:50 PM   #15
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Having looked at the footage, it's interesting that Ketchell's punch does not seem to connect with Johnson before the latter goes down. I don't think it's a fix, but it's curious, no?

BORKED
From what I gather Ketchel hit Johnsons ear.

This might sound silly but the ears are instrumental to ballence. Ketchel hit Johnson in the perfect place to knock him down but not knock him out.

When Ketchel came around Johnson was visibly releived. Later that night Johnson lost a lot of money against Ketchel at poker.
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