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Old 09-08-2007, 07:58 PM   #16
Mendoza
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by mcvey
you didnt answer my question about Smiths statement s that he put Johnson throught the ropes and that the ketchel fight was fixed ,you wanted contemprary sources Ive given you Johnsons sparring partner for the fight in a recorded interview ,verbatim ,you choose to ignore it ,I think Ill do the same with you ,you dissapoint me ,your hatred of Johnson has clouded youyr judgement and made you look foolish.
The Smith sparring session is hard to say whether it was a KO or a knock down through the ropes. You added nothing new from where I'm sitting. Stories can vary; you simply pick the best one to suit your agenda.

Please show me real proof the Ketchel fight was fixed. You have none. You offer a writer who suggested this. A man who lived decades after the fight and did not interview a soul involved in the match. Nice. As I told you, Johnson's antics were the same in other filmed fights, where he held up and played with over matched opponents. See the Burns and Flynn fights. Were they fixed too? How come you don’t even fully quote what I say in a reply, or answer my questions directly?

Better yet, if you think the Ketchel vs Johnson fight was " fixed ", then are you open to other fighters taking dives or agreeing not to beat Johnson?

Your have painted yourself into the corner, and have no straws to grasp for except to say I'm biased. Nice one. I deal with facts, and film, not hearsay or excuses.

Last edited by Mendoza; 09-09-2007 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

Hi Mendoza & McVey,

I think that a Gunboat Smith fight would have been interesting.

Smith was fairly tall (about 6' 1") as compared to many of Johnson's
opponents. Also, Smith had developed a decent jab to go along with
his powerful right. A fight against Johnson, circa 1913, would be
very difficult for the aging Johnson. Smith was a more complete
fighter than Frank Moran, who relied on a powerful, but wild, right
hand swing. Johnson feasted on wild swinging fighters.

Not saying that Smith would have beaten Johnson, but he might
have given Johnson a rough fight.

BTW, I have the Jack Johnson-Frank Moran fight on 8MM tape.

If I can get it transferred to DVD, I'll check it out & let you guys
know how Johnson looked in that fight.
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:39 PM   #18
Mendoza
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by Grebfan9
Hi Mendoza & McVey,

I think that a Gunboat Smith fight would have been interesting.

Smith was fairly tall (about 6' 1") as compared to many of Johnson's
opponents. Also, Smith had developed a decent jab to go along with
his powerful right. A fight against Johnson, circa 1913, would be
very difficult for the aging Johnson. Smith was a more complete
fighter than Frank Moran, who relied on a powerful, but wild, right
hand swing. Johnson feasted on wild swinging fighters.

Not saying that Smith would have beaten Johnson, but he might
have given Johnson a rough fight.

BTW, I have the Jack Johnson-Frank Moran fight on 8MM tape.

If I can get it transferred to DVD, I'll check it out & let you guys
know how Johnson looked in that fight.
I don't think the poster known as McVey is a bad guy, just a bit out there regarding fixes, and double standards in two isolated threads.

I own Johnson vs Moran. I have roughly 50 minutes of action, or 83% of the filmed fight. If you have not seen the fight, you might be surprised at how close it is. I think Johnson edged it, but not by much. 10-8, with 2 rounds even is a good score card. A draw is fine. Moran via decision is doable if you give him some of the close rounds. Johnson was better on the inside. Moran seemed to have better success on the outside. I do think Moran had a slight lead after 15 rounds.

Frank Moran was a solid fighter or above average “ white hope “, but Moran was not as good as Gunboat Smith, Jess Willard or Jack Dillion. While Johnson was a bit past his prime in this fight, the fact that Moran was near even with him suggests the best of the white hopes might have dethroned Johnson if given the opportunity pre 1915.

When you watch Johnson vs Moran, give us your score card. By the way I also own about 7 minutes of Moran vs Willard. Moran looks to be the better in the limited footage that I have. Quite frankly this looks to be an awful fight. The news reads concur. Willard looks clumsy. Moran has more skill, but is gun shy of Willard’s big right hand. This is perhaps the worst filmed performance I have ever seen in a lineal championship heavyweight title fight.
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:14 AM   #19
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebfan9
Hi Mendoza & McVey,

I think that a Gunboat Smith fight would have been interesting.

Smith was fairly tall (about 6' 1") as compared to many of Johnson's
opponents. Also, Smith had developed a decent jab to go along with
his powerful right. A fight against Johnson, circa 1913, would be
very difficult for the aging Johnson. Smith was a more complete
fighter than Frank Moran, who relied on a powerful, but wild, right
hand swing. Johnson feasted on wild swinging fighters.

Not saying that Smith would have beaten Johnson, but he might
have given Johnson a rough fight.

BTW, I have the Jack Johnson-Frank Moran fight on 8MM tape.

If I can get it transferred to DVD, I'll check it out & let you guys
know how Johnson looked in that fight.
I have the Moran fight thanks,Johnson came in at 221 for this one ,you can see the lard over his trunks.Johnson broke Morans nose in the 5th with a right uppercut,he was holding him in a clinch the referee Carpentier ,called on them to break,Moran tried to step back Johnson,[who had him by the neck ]tightened his grip and smashed home his pet punch the right uppercut ,Carpentier remonstrated with Johnson,and a notice board went up stating johnson has received a warning.Another breach of the rules and he will be disqualified.Johnson was playing with fire here his training was lax and his tactics questionablemaybe Gunboat Smith with his rangy style and big punch could have produced an upset had it been him in that Paris ring instead of Moran.Johnson was no longer the trained to the minute 208 panther ,who had humiliated the brave but finished Jeffries, he was a 221 lbs out of shape and at 36 conning his way through contests against inferior foes,the writing was on the wall.
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by mcvey
I have the Moran fight thanks,Johnson came in at 221 for this one ,you can see the lard over his trunks.Johnson broke Morans nose in the 5th with a right uppercut,he was holding him in a clinch the referee Carpentier ,called on them to break,Moran tried to step back Johnson,[who had him by the neck ]tightened his grip and smashed home his pet punch the right uppercut ,Carpentier remonstrated with Johnson,and a notice board went up stating johnson has received a warning.Another breach of the rules and he will be disqualified.Johnson was playing with fire here his training was lax and his tactics questionablemaybe Gunboat Smith with his rangy style and big punch could have produced an upset had it been him in that Paris ring instead of Moran.Johnson was no longer the trained to the minute 208 panther ,who had humiliated the brave but finished Jeffries, he was a 221 lbs out of shape and at 36 conning his way through contests against inferior foes,the writing was on the wall.
The writing had been on the wall since the Flyn fight.

We might however question whether Johnson would have taken Smith as lightly as he did Moran. There are a lot of rumours about the Moran fight. One is that Moran agreed to lay down but then renaiged on the deal at the opening bell. If this is true then Johnson would have had to think verry fast to recover the situation.

I think that when Willard took the title from Johnson he was possibly the only white hope capable of beating him on that day.
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Old 09-11-2007, 04:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

1. Fred Fulton
2. Gunboat Smith
3. Jess Willard
4. Sandy Ferguson
5. Jim Jeffries (although past his best)
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Old 09-11-2007, 04:27 AM   #22
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by janitor
The writing had been on the wall since the Flyn fight.

We might however question whether Johnson would have taken Smith as lightly as he did Moran. There are a lot of rumours about the Moran fight. One is that Moran agreed to lay down but then renaiged on the deal at the opening bell. If this is true then Johnson would have had to think verry fast to recover the situation.

I think that when Willard took the title from Johnson he was possibly the only white hope capable of beating him on that day.
Denzil Batchelor in his book Jack Johnson And His Times said it was a fix ,with Moran agreeing to go down ,[hence Johnsons condition or lack of it],but then reneging on the deal.Batchelor also states that the third Burns OBrien fight was the same with Burns reneging on his promise to go down,indeed Burns ,immediately he came into the ring told the referee that he was there for a straight fight,the ref shouting through a megaphone told the crowd "gentleman ,allbetsmade on OBriento win up tothis moment are off,the fight will now commence,gentleman you are free to make your bets as you will.OBrien had been 2/1 on favourite ,but now the odds reversed.
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:42 AM   #23
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Denzil Batchelor in his book Jack Johnson And His Times said it was a fix ,with Moran agreeing to go down ,[hence Johnsons condition or lack of it],but then reneging on the deal.Batchelor also states that the third Burns OBrien fight was the same with Burns reneging on his promise to go down,indeed Burns ,immediately he came into the ring told the referee that he was there for a straight fight,the ref shouting through a megaphone told the crowd "gentleman ,allbetsmade on OBriento win up tothis moment are off,the fight will now commence,gentleman you are free to make your bets as you will.OBrien had been 2/1 on favourite ,but now the odds reversed.
There is too much talk of fixing with Johnson. Its an excuse. The Moran fight was on the level. Johnson often ran his mouth when the he looked bad. Moran gave him a very close fight. Johnson also claims the Willard fight was fixed, and the Ketchel fight was fixed. For all we know, he might have said the Jim Battling Johnson fight was fixed too. It seems that whenever Johnson did not do well, he has excuses.

Is this Jack Johnson or Sholess Joe Jackson? Enough with the fixes. Like I said before, if you beleive some of Johnson's fights were fixed, it kills his credibility. Who took dives for him?
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:53 PM   #24
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
There is too much talk of fixing with Johnson. Its an excuse. The Moran fight was on the level. Johnson often ran his mouth when the he looked bad. Moran gave him a very close fight. Johnson also claims the Willard fight was fixed, and the Ketchel fight was fixed. For all we know, he might have said the Jim Battling Johnson fight was fixed too. It seems that whenever Johnson did not do well, he has excuses.

Is this Jack Johnson or Sholess Joe Jackson? Enough with the fixes. Like I said before, if you beleive some of Johnson's fights were fixed, it kills his credibility. Who took dives for him?
No Comment.
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

With Johnson itīs getting really awkward now. Every win was a great result, and every fight he lost/ draw/ struggled was a fixed fight or a fight where he wasnīt in top shape. After reading Johnsonīs book "Unforgivable Blackness" I lost very much respect for him, his excusses are lame and ridiculous...
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:44 PM   #26
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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With Johnson itīs getting really awkward now. Every win was a great result, and every fight he lost/ draw/ struggled was a fixed fight or a fight where he wasnīt in top shape. After reading Johnsonīs book "Unforgivable Blackness" I lost very much respect for him, his excusses are lame and ridiculous...
READ MY POST! I didnt say the fight wasnt on the level,Isaid there were rumours that it was intended to be a fix and that Moran reneged on it Johnson won a close fight that was on the level ,due to his lack of condition he struggled ,as I said in a previous post ,plus I said that Gunboat Smith might havebeaten Johnson that night in Paris,can no one read on this thread!Im making no excuses for Johnson I think the Ketchel Fight was Fixed and so does every boxing writer Ive read, I think the Willard fight was on the level and Jess won fair and square ,blind hatred of a fighter is making some people on this forum look ridiculous.I wont reply to that prat with the hate Johnson ,build up Jeffries agenda,,I thought you and I had agreed to differ maybe I was wrong.
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by mcvey
READ MY POST! I didnt say the fight wasnt on the level,Isaid there were rumours that it was intended to be a fix and that Moran reneged on it Johnson won a close fight that was on the level ,due to his lack of condition he struggled ,as I said in a previous post ,plus I said that Gunboat Smith might havebeaten Johnson that night in Paris,can no one read on this thread!Im making no excuses for Johnson I think the Ketchel Fight was Fixed and so does every boxing writer Ive read, I think the Willard fight was on the level and Jess won fair and square ,blind hatred of a fighter is making some people on this forum look ridiculous.I wont reply to that prat with the hate Johnson ,build up Jeffries agenda,,I thought you and I had agreed to differ maybe I was wrong.
Mcvey, false alarm! I didnīt mean you with my post. I meant that in general... (for example C.M. Clay II uses those ridiculous excusses)
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by mcvey
READ MY POST! I didnt say the fight wasnt on the level,Isaid there were rumours that it was intended to be a fix and that Moran reneged on it Johnson won a close fight that was on the level ,due to his lack of condition he struggled ,as I said in a previous post ,plus I said that Gunboat Smith might havebeaten Johnson that night in Paris,can no one read on this thread!Im making no excuses for Johnson I think the Ketchel Fight was Fixed and so does every boxing writer Ive read, I think the Willard fight was on the level and Jess won fair and square ,blind hatred of a fighter is making some people on this forum look ridiculous.I wont reply to that prat with the hate Johnson ,build up Jeffries agenda,,I thought you and I had agreed to differ maybe I was wrong.
Johnson weighed 221 for the Moran fight ,you box as did I, look at the film ,does he look in shape? Hes fat.Mamma Mia facts arent excuses!
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:14 PM   #29
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

this post was to rate the white hopes?
mc carty
smith
dillon
moran
fulton
coffey
carpentier
levinsky
palzar
j.flynn
wells
dont rate ferguson or miske as white hopes.
By the way regarding Gunboat Smith people seem to disregard his poorer performances, he was very in and out, probably easily the best at his best but i think Willard had a better resume that any of them but thats open to debate.
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Old 09-11-2007, 03:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Your Top 5 from the "White Hopes" (Johnson era)

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
There is too much talk of fixing with Johnson. Its an excuse. The Moran fight was on the level. Johnson often ran his mouth when the he looked bad. Moran gave him a very close fight. Johnson also claims the Willard fight was fixed, and the Ketchel fight was fixed. For all we know, he might have said the Jim Battling Johnson fight was fixed too. It seems that whenever Johnson did not do well, he has excuses.

Is this Jack Johnson or Sholess Joe Jackson? Enough with the fixes. Like I said before, if you beleive some of Johnson's fights were fixed, it kills his credibility. Who took dives for him?
The Willard fight was definitely on the level. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

There is however evidence for a prior arrangment in the Moran fight from sources other than Johnson himself. Incidentaly there is also evidence that Johnson employed the same deception against Tommy Burns.
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