ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2011

[Brian Zelley]

Originally Posted by Rumsfeld

BTW everyone, I'm going to eventually finish that P4P survey at some point in the foreseeable future.

Let's hope it doesn't use these poll results as the ground-level source
of the all-time best list because we can already pick the top four
in this fresh new list and I bet your money that three of the top
list will be Ali, Duran and Ray Leonard if these poll results are
any indication of objectivity and fairness.

[Rumsfeld]

Originally Posted by Brian Zelley

Let's hope it doesn't use these poll results as the ground-level source
of the all-time best list because we can already pick the top four
in this fresh new list and I bet your money that three of the top
list will be Ali, Duran and Ray Leonard if these poll results are
any indication of objectivity and fairness.

Please, do elaborate!

[MrOliverKlozoff]

Originally Posted by Brian Zelley

ALI is rated too high and Ezzard Charles is not the best light-heavyweight

Interesting, heavyweight list, an obvious slant when you have
Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Foreman in the top ten - it is like the good old
boys club of the Seventies with Larry tossed in to bend the result towards the moderns.

Looking at the other divisions, far too many top fighters are missing in action.
Wonder how folks dream -up their choices, is it a cultural thing an age thing,
a race card thing or what?

Originally Posted by Brian Zelley

Well there are a few in the list of ten heavyweights that are over-rated
by the starry-eyed voters. You have a heavyweight poll with
ALI - FRAZIER - FOREMAN - HOLMES in the top ten. Now isn't that convenient logic. Build-up ALI to number one spot and to justify his superior standing
boost-up some of his key opponents. Some of the voters must of researched their choices by reading old "World Boxing" and "International Boxing" magazines from the Seventies and Eighties to support their picks in this
difficult decision making process. THE BEST OF BOXING

What the f-...

[Rumsfeld]

Okay! I finally finished everything almost a full year after the fact!



Sorry I took so long everyone. Have just been busy with other things!

Thanks to all who have participated.

[jacklondon]

I just looked at the first two names on the silly (but "politically correct") list and chucked it. Russians and eastern Europeans and also black Africans and Cuban (expats) weren't even allowed to compete back then, Neither of them ever faced one. They weren't real "world champions". Now they are competing and the results are obvious. The amazing Doctor Klitschko brothers are the two greatest heavyweights of all time period.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by jacklondon

I just looked at the first two names on the silly (but "politically correct") list and chucked it. Russians and eastern Europeans and also black Africans and Cuban (expats) weren't even allowed to compete back then, Neither of them ever faced one. They weren't real "world champions". Now they are competing and the results are obvious. The amazing Doctor Klitschko brothers are the two greatest heavyweights of all time period.

What have either Klitschko brother ever done to suggest that they are better than the people mentioned? Answer this question.

[TAC602]

Originally Posted by orriray59

What have either Klitschko brother ever done to suggest that they are better than the people mentioned? Answer this question.

You haven't seen their case?

[Brickhaus]

Originally Posted by BronxBull

Bernard Hopkins is on the middle weight list but not Jake LaMotta?? ridiculous

What argument does LaMotta have to be an all-time top 10 MW? He'd be lucky to crack the top 20. Outside of one win against Robinson, what might possibly justify a top 10 spot?

I get the feeling that if they made a movie about Fritzie Zivic, you'd think it's ridiculous that he didn't make the top 10 at WW too.

[El Bujia]

Originally Posted by Brickhaus

What argument does LaMotta have to be an all-time top 10 MW? He'd be lucky to crack the top 20. Outside of one win against Robinson, what might possibly justify a top 10 spot?

Gee, I dunno. Wins over Marcel Cerdan, Jose Basora, Holman Williams, Fritzie Zivic, Tommy Yarosz, Bert Lytell, Robert Villemain, Laurent Dauthuille, George "Sugar" Costner, Bob Satterfield, etc.

I know, I know, it doesn't compare to Hopkins' wins over such Middleweight kingpins as Howard Eastman, William Joppy, Keith Holmes, Syd Vanderpool, and sweeping the trilogy against the almighty Robert Allen.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by El Bujia

Gee, I dunno. Wins over Marcel Cerdan, Jose Basora, Holman Williams, Fritzie Zivic, Tommy Yarosz, Bert Lytell, Robert Villemain, Laurent Dauthuille, George "Sugar" Costner, Bob Satterfield, etc.

I know, I know, it doesn't compare to Hopkins' wins over such Middleweight kingpins as Howard Eastman, William Joppy, Keith Holmes, Syd Vanderpool, and sweeping the trilogy against the almighty Robert Allen.

Savage.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by El Bujia

Gee, I dunno. Wins over Marcel Cerdan, Jose Basora, Holman Williams, Fritzie Zivic, Tommy Yarosz, Bert Lytell, Robert Villemain, Laurent Dauthuille, George "Sugar" Costner, Bob Satterfield, etc.

I know, I know, it doesn't compare to Hopkins' wins over such Middleweight kingpins as Howard Eastman, William Joppy, Keith Holmes, Syd Vanderpool, and sweeping the trilogy against the almighty Robert Allen.

The fights against villemain indicate he was a level above jake.

There's a decent argument that robinson and villemain always ranked above jake. I don't buy into it but am argument could be made none the less.

[El Bujia]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

The fights against villemain indicate he was a level above jake.

There's a decent argument that robinson and villemain always ranked above jake. I don't buy into it but am argument could be made none the less.

Perhaps he just matched up well with him? It's also quite possible the weight draining was already starting to take its toll on Jake's body. His fight weights were especially high leading up to the last fight with Robinson. LaMotta's achievements outside of those two fights are clearly superior, anyway, and Villemain was a better Middleweight than any Hopkins beat, surely.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by El Bujia

Perhaps he just matched up well with him? It's also quite possible the weight draining was already starting to take its toll on Jake's body. His fight weights were especially high leading up to the last fight with Robinson. LaMotta's achievements outside of those two fights are clearly superior, anyway, and Villemain was a better Middleweight than any Hopkins beat, surely.

Yeah bad style matchup definitely. Yeah I read he was a natural lhw who boiled down.

Maybe they are better, who knows? I agree that jake is underrated massively as a mw; but he isn't as great a mw as hopkins was imo. Transposing era's is something I put no stock in and it's beyond question that hopkins was better in his era than jake was in his.

But as a mw, jake should be atleast top 15 and certainly above walker, zale and apostoli.

[Flea Man]

But Jakes era was also a lot better than B-Hops.

[El Bujia]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Transposing era's is something I put no stock in

So, what, you just assume every era is of the same level of quality as any other? If you're doing such extensive research on them (quite speedily for someone who's supposed to be putting so much time into it) surely you'd realise that's far from the case.

Has your research been relegated to researching rankings and paper accomplishments at the expense of watching actual film?