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Old 09-08-2007, 11:56 AM   #1
Maxmomer
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Default Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

Choynski may never have gotten a belt, but his level of oposition was insane. He fought a lot of the early greats, and even though he often came up short, he gave them incredibly tough fights. Who do you think would win between these two?
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:02 PM   #2
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

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Originally Posted by Maxmomer
Choynski may never have gotten a belt, but his level of oposition was insane. He fought a lot of the early greats, and even though he often came up short, he gave them incredibly tough fights. Who do you think would win between these two?
Ketchel has two filmed fights that I have seen. Johnson and Papke. While Ketchel could hit, he was rather poor defnesively, and seemed to have problmes with speed.

The only film left on Choynski is his sparring in 1910 with Jeffries, and Choysnki here is a quick as cat. Choynski's main problem was with cuts and taking punches, but I think he is too fast for Ketchel and hits just as hard. I'd pick Choynski to win, but I would give Ketchel a good chance for a come from behind type of KO.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

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Originally Posted by Flabby Gut
Choysnki kayoed a green Jack Johnson and gave Jeffries and Corbett all they could handle. I believe he was handled without much problems by Fitzsimmons. He was a super fighter no doubt. Based upon the size difference AND the fact that Choysnki was a great fighter in his own right I think he would win.

Choynski KO 10 Ketchel
The size difference isn't that great.
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
Choynski may never have gotten a belt, but his level of oposition was insane. He fought a lot of the early greats, and even though he often came up short, he gave them incredibly tough fights. Who do you think would win between these two?
I would take Choynsky to stop Ketchel around the 12th round,I think he had more power,and was better defensively and a bit faster.

Last edited by mcvey; 05-26-2009 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

Ketchel KO 3 Choynski. Choynski had a glass jaw and loved to trade, thats suicide against the best middleweight puncher of all time in Stanley Ketchel. Choynski will get bombarded with Ketchel like torpedos coming from all angles, and the first one that lands flush on the chin, choynski will be out cold. I would like to add, Choynski was defintley not faster than Ketchel. Certainly not handspeed wise.
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Old 05-25-2009, 05:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

Suzt latel you realy tooken a shine to ketchell you been reserchin him at the moment
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Old 05-25-2009, 06:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

Naw. Im just sick of him being underrated because the only film performance of him at middleweight is his worst performance in the 4th papke fight....The best knockouts and performances of Stanley Ketchel are not on film. I will tell you, if the 3rd Ketchel-Papke fight survived, people would hold alot higher opinion on the two. Its such a shame. You do get small glimpses though just how great he was. You also get to see his power work first hand against a 6'1 205lb ATG heavyweight with 1 punch.



here read this from Monte Cox's article on Ketchel

Ketchel went back to California for a fourth meeting with Billy Papke. This fight was a bitter disappointment. The Chronicle reported, “They fought like old women...Ketchel seemed absolutely lost, with no punch and with no accuracy.” The fight was lackadaisical by both parties. It was a sloppy fight although Ketchel claimed he broke his hand in an early hand. It went to a 20 round decision with the referee declaring Ketchel the winner but the newspapers said a draw would have been a fairer verdict. It is highly unfortunate, this being perhaps Ketchel's worst performance, that this fight is one of only two surviving films available of Stanley Ketchel, the other being the Johnson fiasco.



Here is why I like Stanley Ketchel

1. In a racially motivated era HE DID NOT DRAW THE COLOR LINE and in fact took on the two best and baddest black heavyweights of his era Jack Johnson and Sam Langford. You think Dempsey or Tunney would do that? Not a chance!

2. He was a fighting Champion and DUCKED NO ONE- He defended his title every month AND against the best contenders around, some of them very good fighters. He usually knocked all of them out.


3. Punching ability- The man was one of the best all around punchers ever. He hit like a mule with either hand, he attacked with a wide ****nal of punches at all angles, he was one of the best finishers of all time, and a great body puncher. He had tiger like aggresion in there and blistering handspeed when he engaged. I also like the way he kept his right hand by his chin and put wait on his back foot similiar to max schmeling stance...most old timers fought straight up with hands by there waist. You can get small glimpses of this by watching the film even though stanley is not at his best.

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 05-25-2009 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

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SuzieQ49 says:


Here is why I like Stanley Ketchel

1. In a racially motivated era HE DID NOT DRAW THE COLOR LINE and in fact took on the two best and baddest black heavyweights of his era Jack Johnson and Sam Langford. You think Dempsey or Tunney would do that? Not a chance!

2. He was a fighting Champion and DUCKED NO ONE- He defended his title every month AND against the best contenders around, some of them very good fighters. He usually knocked all of them out.


3. Punching ability- The man was one of the best all around punchers ever. He hit like a mule with either hand, he attacked with a wide ****nal of punches at all angles, he was one of the best finishers of all time, and a great body puncher. He had tiger like aggresion in there and blistering handspeed when he engaged. I also like the way he kept his right hand by his chin and put wait on his back foot similiar to max schmeling stance...most old timers fought straight up with hands by there waist. You can get small glimpses of this by watching the film even though stanley is not at his best.
Suzie,

The color line is mostly about the lineal champion ( White or Black ) not offering black fighters title shots. Ketchel did not defend his middle weight title vs the top black middles when he was champions, so you could say he drew the color line as middle weight champion. I suppose Jeff Clarke deserved a title shot at middle when Ketchel was champion.

Plenty of white heavies fought top black contenders. Gunboat Smith was the best example. Other examples of journeyman types were Fireman Flynn.

I think if Tunney or Dempsey were not champion, and Johnson was, they would most certainly accept the title shot.

Ketchel to me is rather crude on film. Even those in his own time line called him crude. Sure Ketchel could hit, but I fail to see the blistering hand speed you speak of on flim.
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

Suzie, do you feel that Ketchel hit as hard as Fitzsimmons?

Harder?

Because Choysnki certainly did by several fighters accounts.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

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Even those in his own time line called him crude
Those in his own time also called him the Greatest Middleweight of all time, and Hardest Hitter.

Damon Runyon said that Ketchel and Joe Louis were the only genuine two-handed killer hitters he ever saw and marvelled at Stanley's innate ability to retain his balance even after throwing the hardest of swipes.

I know your big on Fleischer so I am going to give you his opinion. Nat Fleischer rates Stanley Ketchel as the # 1 middleweight of all time. Charley Rose rates Stanley Ketchel as # 1 middleweight of all time.

Now I am not big on monte cox's work at all but i thought Monte made a nice article on Stanley a while back here is Fleischers opinion from it

"One of the greatest fighters of my time. All stone and ice concentration when he entered the ring. The moment he entered his eyes were the eyes of a killer. Ketchel scorned the word retreat. A demon of the roped square he made his opponents think that all the furies in Hades had been turned loose on them. He got his punches away from all angles. If he missed with one hand, he would nail him with the other. He was game as a bulldog and tough as a bronco.” - Nat Fleischer

Quote:
but I fail to see the blistering hand speed you speak of on flim.
There is no Film of Stanley Ketchel at his best. All of his best knockout victories are unfortunatley not on film. How are we to make an accurate assesment? the only clear film we have of Bob Fitzsimmons is vs bill squires, and he gets his **** tossed in that fight. Yet people still argue fitzsimmons as being a great fighter h2h. But even in that lackidasical Papke fight, watch Ketchel at times throw very quick 3-4 punch flurries/combinations from different angles. You can get a quick glimpse of the ketchel who sparked the granite chinned papke in 11 in the 3rd fight. Too bad that fight is not on film.


The Feb. 27, 1909 Tacoma Daily Ledger stated, “Ketchel is much faster than Fitzsimmons in his prime.

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 05-25-2009 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

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Suzie, do you feel that Ketchel hit as hard as Fitzsimmons?

Harder?

.
Same ballpark. I think he was as just as good a finisher too. I think ketchel was faster and much more durable than fitzsimmons and that would have made the difference had the two men fought.


Quote:
Because Choysnki certainly did by several fighters accounts
Choynski also had a glass jaw. Ketchel could take a punch. In a battle between two men going toe to toe, this is a big deal.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

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The color line is mostly about the lineal champion ( White or Black ) not offering black fighters title shots.
Partially true, but not necessarily

Quote:
Ketchel did not defend his middle weight title vs the top black middles when he was champions, so you could say he drew the color line as middle weight champion
Ketchel fought the TWO best black FIGHTERS of the WHOLE ERA and he GAVE UP WEIGHT to fight them!! Also his newspaper decision bout with Langford was arranged for a rematch to be for the title, so ketchel would have defended his title vs Sam Langford

Quote:
. I suppose Jeff Clarke deserved a title shot at middle when Ketchel was champion.
When Stanley died in 1910, Clarke had less than 20 pro fights and had been beaten 3 times by Dixie kid, and been knocked out in 2 rounds by Sam Langford(While ketchel took him 6 hard rounds)....Clark had not one win over a contender by 1910. He was nowhere near in line for a title shot at the time, and would have been much to green for a seasoned stanley if they fought before stanleys death.

About Bill Papke.... He was a First Ballot Hall of Fame middleweight champion. Billy Papke gave Georges Carpentier such a bad beating, that carpenter called it the worst licking he ever received.




Quote:
Plenty of white heavies fought top black contenders
Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney DID NOT

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 05-25-2009 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:05 PM   #13
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Choynski also had a glass jaw. Ketchel could take a punch. In a battle between two men going toe to toe, this is a big deal.
Jack Johnson was sparked out by Choynski. He hit harder then Ketchel, obviously, who only accomplished what he did with a sucker shot on Johnson.
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Old 05-25-2009, 11:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

Ketchel had a buncha' cheerleaders egging him on in his camp........ Ketchel worked hard around the gym and yard, so his body would be tuff and solid for his fights, but his skills as a fighter were NOT all that great..... Ketchel was wide open for counters.....

If I had to take a pick, I too, will go with Joe Choyinski over Ketchel......... J.C. could box and swat...... Ketchel was rugged and crude............

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Old 05-26-2009, 12:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: Joe Choynski VS Stanley Ketchel

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
Jack Johnson was sparked out by Choynski. .
This fight happened in 1901 when Johnson was a starving untrained hobo weighing 180lb. I am suprised actually SHOCKED you have the audacity to bring this fight up. Ketchel destroys a 1901 jack johnson.

Stanley Ketchell fought a PEAK 205lb RIPPED Jack Johnson. A much much different Speciman than the one choynski fought.


Quote:
He hit harder then Ketchel, obviously,
Why because he knocked out a very small green version of jack johnson that many hard hitting super middleweights through history would have flattened?



Quote:
who only accomplished what he did with a sucker shot on Johnson.

What is your definition of a sucker punch? Do you take away jersey joe walcotts knockout of Ezzard Charles and call that shot a sucker punch? How about Michael Nunns on Sumbu Kalambay?

Just because the much smaller ketchel timed perfectly and caught johnson with a huge right hand on the ear and floored him you think he suckered him? What about jack johnson flooring ketchel in the 7th round? was that a sucker punch too?


What about Choynski catching a 180lb Jack Johnson with a left hook? That wasnt a sucker punch?
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