Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-23-2009, 11:59 AM   #1
DINAMITA
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Past
Posts: 10,079
vCash: 1000
Default Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Four questions, please give a full and explanatory answer if you can be bothered...

1.Who was better at middleweight: Bernard Hopkins or Dick Tiger?

2.Who was the more skilled fighter: Floyd Mayweather Jr or Jose Napoles?

3.Whose weight-jumping achievements are better: Manny Pacquiao or Thomas Hearns?

4.Who ranks higher in the all-time Mexican list: Juan Manuel Marquez or Ricardo Lopez?

DINAMITA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-23-2009, 01:56 PM   #2
DINAMITA
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Past
Posts: 10,079
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Not a single response?!
DINAMITA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 02:00 PM   #3
Addie
MAB.
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, England
Posts: 21,045
vCash: 842
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
1.Who was better at middleweight: Bernard Hopkins or Dick Tiger
My knowledge of Dick Tiger is absolutely void. My answer is worthless.

Quote:
2.Who was the more skilled fighter: Floyd Mayweather Jr or Jose Napoles?
Skills is a term that varies in definition, but it wouldn't be fair to give an answer on this either seeing as my knowledge on Napoles isn't what it should be. I'll get back to you on this.

Quote:
3.Whose weight-jumping achievements are better: Manny Pacquiao or Thomas Hearns?
As impressive as it was for Hearns to be successful up at Cruiseweight having started at 147lb, nothing quite beats a former Flyweight moving up to Welterweight to not only beat Oscar De La Hoya, who has fought at Middleweight before, but also stop him.

Quote:
4.Who ranks higher in the all-time Mexican list: Juan Manuel Marquez or Ricardo Lopez?
I give Marquez some crap for his lacking resume, but even his has more names on it than Lopez. Ricardo could have moved up to 108lb and fought Michael Carbajal and Gonzalez with his skills, but he decided to stay in no man's land. Lopez had an exceptional skill set, but so does Marquez, who also beat more name fighters. Marquez.
Addie is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 02:03 PM   #4
PbP Bacon
ALL TIME FAT
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fighting healthy diets everywhere
Posts: 359
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DINAMITA View Post
Four questions, please give a full and explanatory answer if you can be bothered...

1.Who was better at middleweight: Bernard Hopkins or Dick Tiger?

2.Who was the more skilled fighter: Floyd Mayweather Jr or Jose Napoles?

3.Whose weight-jumping achievements are better: Manny Pacquiao or Thomas Hearns?

4.Who ranks higher in the all-time Mexican list: Juan Manuel Marquez or Ricardo Lopez?


Well, here you go:

1) Undecided

2) Gayweather, not that I am happy with that

3) Hearns. He fought better opposition. Pacquiao is great, but De la HBO and Hatton are so-and-so in my list

4) I am not sure, but JMM seems kinda better. Not sure
PbP Bacon is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 02:08 PM   #5
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DINAMITA View Post
Four questions, please give a full and explanatory answer if you can be bothered...

1.Who was better at middleweight: Bernard Hopkins or Dick Tiger?

2.Who was the more skilled fighter: Floyd Mayweather Jr or Jose Napoles?

3.Whose weight-jumping achievements are better: Manny Pacquiao or Thomas Hearns?

4.Who ranks higher in the all-time Mexican list: Juan Manuel Marquez or Ricardo Lopez?

1. Hopkins - just a more rounded fighter; like comparing Jose Napoles to Henry Armstrong.

2. Hmm... Napoles by the smallest of margins, however Mayweather made up for it with some extra speed.

3. Pacquiao. Wait, Hearns. Yeah, Hearns.

4. Marquez.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 02:11 PM   #6
DINAMITA
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Past
Posts: 10,079
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DINAMITA View Post
Not a single response?!
Thanks for getting the thread going guys.

Manassa, we hear from you all too infrequently. Care to elaborate further on any of your answers? I'd be really interested to hear them.
DINAMITA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 02:25 PM   #7
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,533
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

1. Hopkins by decision ...
2. Napoles
3. Hearns. Beating a near dead Oscar and a chinless Hatton not there yet ...
4. ? ... Not my guys ...
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 02:36 PM   #8
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DINAMITA View Post
Thanks for getting the thread going guys.

Manassa, we hear from you all too infrequently. Care to elaborate further on any of your answers? I'd be really interested to hear them.
I'm not really into the fighters of the last two questions, but I'll have a go on the first two...

... Hopkins at the moment is hard for many to judge. He's either victimised by old timers because he's too current for them to comprehend (fair enough, but state that opinion please rather than saying Harry Greb would have ripped him a new arsehole ) or he's overrated by modern fans as a counter opinion to the first one. I reckon he was about the fourth or fifth greatest middleweight of all time (leaving Harry Greb out just for now; uncertainty issues):

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Ray Robinson
4. Bernard Hopkins

Old timers ironically or deliberately tend to remember his recent performances, some of which have been lacklustre, and forget about his middle days when he was actually quite fearsome on the front foot and aggressive. That Hopkins is a far shout from the wily defensive fox of the last few years, and would have beaten most of the other middleweight greats.

On how he fares against Dick Tiger? Now the question was 'who was better at middleweight', rather than who would win a fight between the two. Hopkins was better seeing as he'd beat more of the greats, but Tiger is one of the ones he might have struggled with. Hopkins is definitely a more rounded fighter, no question, but then Tiger might just have had the right tools to win. Giardello-Hopkins comparisons are pretty worthless, because Joey was a much, much different fighter and could be quite unorthodox in the ring. I don't think Hopkins would dance and make Tiger miss (not that Giardello did either), and they'd exchange frequently throughout the fight. And Tiger, being so strong, durable and quick (very important), would not budge. I maintain that Tiger was the strongest infighter in middleweight history, and Hopkins wouldn't change that.

Not to say Tiger would win necessarily, infact I'd pick Hopkins narrowly - just that it'd be quite close.

--

Mayweather-Napoles - who was more skilled? An even more difficult question probably. I went with Napoles.

Mayweather has a more modern skill set; believe it or not, boxing has changed a bit from even as recently as 1970. I put it down to a few things, even down to something as obscure as the headguards in amateur boxing which promotes speed and power boxing as opposed to a more professional, thoughtful approach. Generally, fighters today seem speedier, but then they can lack the essential skills that could turn the tide in their favour, especially in one of the old fifteen round fights.

Anyway, Mayweather is great in what he does. He moves very well, jabs, tucks himself up and counters with punches that Joe Louis would be impressed by; he's tight, quick and economical.

Napoles was, if anything, even more skillful though. He wasn't quite as fast, and although this one isn't particularly a good thing, he often held his hands quite low. He basically baited his own face so he could slip and counter with punches sharper than even Mayweather's. Napoles was knocked down perhaps three times in his whole career at most, and that's down to his ruthlessly efficient positioning and footwork. For the same reason, he was also a devastating puncher, not because of his strength, but because of his placement. It was perfection.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 07:11 PM   #9
DINAMITA
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Past
Posts: 10,079
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
I'm not really into the fighters of the last two questions, but I'll have a go on the first two...

... Hopkins at the moment is hard for many to judge. He's either victimised by old timers because he's too current for them to comprehend (fair enough, but state that opinion please rather than saying Harry Greb would have ripped him a new arsehole ) or he's overrated by modern fans as a counter opinion to the first one. I reckon he was about the fourth or fifth greatest middleweight of all time (leaving Harry Greb out just for now; uncertainty issues):

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Ray Robinson
4. Bernard Hopkins

Old timers ironically or deliberately tend to remember his recent performances, some of which have been lacklustre, and forget about his middle days when he was actually quite fearsome on the front foot and aggressive. That Hopkins is a far shout from the wily defensive fox of the last few years, and would have beaten most of the other middleweight greats.

On how he fares against Dick Tiger? Now the question was 'who was better at middleweight', rather than who would win a fight between the two. Hopkins was better seeing as he'd beat more of the greats, but Tiger is one of the ones he might have struggled with. Hopkins is definitely a more rounded fighter, no question, but then Tiger might just have had the right tools to win. Giardello-Hopkins comparisons are pretty worthless, because Joey was a much, much different fighter and could be quite unorthodox in the ring. I don't think Hopkins would dance and make Tiger miss (not that Giardello did either), and they'd exchange frequently throughout the fight. And Tiger, being so strong, durable and quick (very important), would not budge. I maintain that Tiger was the strongest infighter in middleweight history, and Hopkins wouldn't change that.

Not to say Tiger would win necessarily, infact I'd pick Hopkins narrowly - just that it'd be quite close.

--

Mayweather-Napoles - who was more skilled? An even more difficult question probably. I went with Napoles.

Mayweather has a more modern skill set; believe it or not, boxing has changed a bit from even as recently as 1970. I put it down to a few things, even down to something as obscure as the headguards in amateur boxing which promotes speed and power boxing as opposed to a more professional, thoughtful approach. Generally, fighters today seem speedier, but then they can lack the essential skills that could turn the tide in their favour, especially in one of the old fifteen round fights.

Anyway, Mayweather is great in what he does. He moves very well, jabs, tucks himself up and counters with punches that Joe Louis would be impressed by; he's tight, quick and economical.

Napoles was, if anything, even more skillful though. He wasn't quite as fast, and although this one isn't particularly a good thing, he often held his hands quite low. He basically baited his own face so he could slip and counter with punches sharper than even Mayweather's. Napoles was knocked down perhaps three times in his whole career at most, and that's down to his ruthlessly efficient positioning and footwork. For the same reason, he was also a devastating puncher, not because of his strength, but because of his placement. It was perfection.
Exactly what I was after with this thread. Thanks a lot for a great post mate
DINAMITA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 08:55 PM   #10
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DINAMITA View Post
Exactly what I was after with this thread. Thanks a lot for a great post mate
No worries, ta
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 09:07 PM   #11
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
No worries, ta
Our recent fued aside. How highly do you rate Hopkins as a fighter and what areas of his game impress you the most?
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 09:14 PM   #12
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
Our recent fued aside. How highly do you rate Hopkins as a fighter and what areas of his game impress you the most?
Well, I did cover it already, sort of. Fourth or fifth greatest middleweight, although I'm not sure about a pound-for-pound rating as of yet - needs revision. There is no particular area of his game that stands out to me, he was just quite versatile at his best and was 'solid' to 'strong' in every respect.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 09:23 PM   #13
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Well, I did cover it already, sort of. Fourth or fifth greatest middleweight, although I'm not sure about a pound-for-pound rating as of yet - needs revision. There is no particular area of his game that stands out to me, he was just quite versatile at his best and was 'solid' to 'strong' in every respect.
Quite impressed that you rate him so highly at the weight. Considering you'll probably not rate many middleweights as truely great after Hagled retired. I agree with the your take on the part I highlighted. He was just a well rounded and strong middleweight. He's like Hagler in many ways. Not many weaknesses at all. However, I think he's a bit sneaker and harder to pin down. More cautious and cagey. Hagler himself could hold back and box very well on the outside and certainly packed more power.

Hagler-Hopkins is one of my fav mythical matches, along with Whitaker-Duran.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 09:34 PM   #14
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
although I'm not sure about a pound-for-pound rating as of yet - needs revision.
I'd certainly rate him above Hagler in that regard. I think his recent performance against Pavlik at the age of 43 makes him sneak past Marvin. While his middleweight reign has more quantity than depth of quality within Hagler's reign, his recent showings at light-heavyweight at such an advanced age are impressive. He was the underdog against Tarver and Pavlik, only to dominate them both convincingly. Quite remarkable skills for an oldy.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 10:17 PM   #15
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Looking For Classic Opinions On Today's Top 4 vs Some Past Greats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DINAMITA View Post
1.Who was better at middleweight: Bernard Hopkins or Dick Tiger?
Hard to say.

I'd like to swap their middleweight position and see how they do against each other's competition.

Here is my take on what would happen:

Tiger in Hopkins' era

A slightly green Tiger would probably lose to Roy Jones in a similar way that Bernard did to Roy.

He doesn't lose another fight.

Hopkins in Tiger's era

I think Hopkins would lose 2 out of 3 fights with Gene Fullmer. I think Gene can box with Hopkins on the outside and can grind with him on the inside. He's just as dirty if not more so and he's stronger than Hopkins.

Hopkins might lose a decision to Giardello when he is slightly before his best, but should then be able to to beat Joey by a mixture of smart outboxing and grinding on the inside. Probably 3 fights to 1 for Hopkins.

A fight with Joey Archer might go to Hopkins by the slightest of margins. Archer is the better boxer on the outside but Hopkins will find his home and do the scrapping and infighting needed to edge ahead on the scorecards I feel.

Hopkins would beat Emile Griffith once and lose to him once, just as (imo) Tiger did. A fresher Hopkins will be able to do his thing on the inside with Griffith and hold the edge in the outboxing, taking a clear but close and competitive decision. Against an older Hopkins, like the one that fought Jermain Taylor, Griffith would outbox him and win the few exchanges needed to take the fight.

Again if we take Hopkins of the Jermain Taylor vintage, I think he loses to Nino Benvenuti. Maybe even the Hopkins of DLH vintage loses to Benvenuti. Benvenuti is the better striker on the outside and can handle himself at close distance too. An older Hopkins will not be able to impose his strength on him I don't think.


Anyone else like to have a go at doing this?

How about a mythical fight between them, both at their best? I can't pick that one with a great deal of confidence. It will be a battle of Hopkins' slightly better outside game vs. Tiger's slightly better inside game imo.
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013