Frazier ('70) vrs. Cooney ('81)

[JIm Broughton]

Cooney has only one chance and it's a slim one at that and that's a 1st round ko. If he can come out fast and throw all he has at Joe, who we all know needs a few rounds to warm up then he has a punchers chance of stopping a still cold Frazier. If he doesn't then Joe beats the tar out of Gerry for a few rounds before putting his lights out around the 5th.

[PetethePrince]

Frazier was a dangerous man at this point in 1970. He would eat Cooney to pieces. He's all wrong for Frazier.

[RockyJim]

Take"Smokin" Joe over Cooney in this one...Geez...

[round15]

Originally Posted by Chris ******

First of all, George Foreman would have had much more trouble with the Joe Frazier of 1970, pre FOTC, as opposed to the fighter who defended his title three years later in Jamaica. Not saying Frazier beats Foreman, but to suggest George KO's a primer, fitter Frazier who actually doesn't underestimate his power and boxing ability, inside two rounds is not happening. Boxing logic and history says Foreman would always KO Joe Frazier, but I'd give this version of Joe a solid chance at surviving George's early power and stopping him later like he did to Mathis. The only difference, I don't think Foreman lasts as long as Mathis because George was not known for his stamina.

As for Cooney, I think he probably shows some good boxing ability against Frazier, winning the first few rounds and maybe trades some hooks like Quarry did. Everyone knows Frazier is a slow starter compared to most heavyweights and he's vulnerable in the early rounds. Compared to Ali though, anyone looks slow, so based on Joe's conditioning and how he treats this fight is how I'd determine the number of early rounds he'd lose. Cooney might have Joe down early like most people would suggest but Cooney is not stopping Frazier. I'd be surprised to see Cooney make it past round 7 against pre-FOTC Joe Frazier.


First off this is a Frazier vs Cooney not George Foreman vs Joe Frazier. George Foreman went 10 rounds a few times before he fought Frazier anyway. Frazier's body would never held up 10 rounds against Foreman period. Anyway Frazier would Ko Cooney in a few rounds

I know the subject of this thread Chris ******.

My point about using Frazier vs Foreman in this thread is in defense of Frazier such that most always use the Foreman fights as a barometer for big punchers against Frazier which is wrong. I will still say that Foreman wouldn't have the easy fight in 1973 as opposed to the Frazier of 1967 - 1970. Cooney wouldn't do to Frazier, albeit an overweight, out of shape Frazier, what Foreman did to Frazier.

Foreman wouldn't have stood up to the pressure, pace and body attack of 1967 - 1970 conditioned Frazier. He probably gets away with some shoving and mauling, but to say that Foreman beats any version of Frazier gives Joe no credit. Ali himself said that any heavyweight in history would have a hard time beating the FOTC version of Joe Frazier. This includes Cooney.

[Chinxkid]

Joe gets in early and often .... dismantles him within 5 ... TIMBER-R-R-R...

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by round15

Foreman wouldn't have stood up to the pressure, pace and body attack of 1967 - 1970 conditioned Frazier.

I think Joe Frazier was still well into his prime in 1971 for the FOTC. In fact, its the bout that many experts say that he Joe was at his absolute peak, and it was less than two years prior to the Foreman fight. To say that Frazier was peak in 1967, hence suggesting that he was more than half a decade past it against Foreman, is getting dangerously close to revisionism...

[Flea Man]

The first round would be a titanic battle! However, Frazier would come out for the second, Conney's body would; Then Frazier would stop him, soon after the 2nd has begun.

Different levels, I would put Cooney in the Morrison, Mercer, Tua, Shavers bracket; top bangers that lacked that extra SOMETHING to put on the same level as say, Lewis, Holmes, Ali, Louis etc etc etc etc

In a H2H Sense of course

EDIT: I would actually put Shavers slightly above those guys. Fought better opposition IMO

[yancey]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Frazier was a dangerous man at this point in 1970. He would eat Cooney to pieces. He's all wrong for Frazier.

Hey, we agree on something.

Now if we could only get you to see the light on Frazier-Marciano.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by yancey

Hey, we agree on something.

Now if we could only get you to see the light on Frazier-Marciano.

Haha yeah, who knows someone could have a change of heart. Frazier of 70 and 71 was a very dangerous opponent that could've taken out a lot of heavyweights. Very few beat him.

If there's one real big weakness that Marciano had or had it's tendency of doing that he would have to fix or refine a bit it might be his wide looping bombs he threw. He gets carried away when hurting opponents and gets in a frenzy sometimes. He could've had Charles in the 1st fight many times, in fact he should have knocked him out in the 10th round. He can't do this against the elites, especially the brawlers/sluggers. He would need to be focused and disciplined, and keeping that accuracy and wildness contained.

In a fight against Frazier he has to try being precise and can't get carried away. Frazier would have his hands full as well, though. Frazier would arguably be most dangerous hurt in this case when Marciano goes on a ferocious battering turn. But the opposite question is how does Joe handle all those punches being thrown at him...

[Rico Spadafora]

Cooney was a one armed fighter. He also had questionable stamina, Chin and was mentally weak.

Cooney's ONLY chance would be a 1st or 2nd round KO. If he failed at that he would get broken down and KOed in around 5 rounds.

Cooney had devastating power in his left but even then I still can't fathom him beating Joe Frazier.

[Minotauro]

Frazier stops Cooney in the fifth.

[spion]

I am a huge fan of Smokin Joe and this matchup I wouldn't take lightly. Many are talking about Cooney having a weak chin, but the 81 version mentioned here doesn't seem that way to me. Cooney took some hellacious shots against Holmes and was still in the fight for 13 fast paced rounds. Thats after over a year of inactivity. Cooney's right was (IMO and Ken Nortons as well) underestimated. His leverage on the hook and uppercut was tremendous and at six feet six and a half inches tall it would be difficult for Frazier to land to the head out of the crouch.

Problem for Gerry Cooney is that he tended to negate his height when opting for power against shorter opponents. Against Frazier, George Foreman early on looked like a matador as he moved away and used lateral movement to avoid Smokin Joe's onslaught. Cooney never demonstrated at that time such movement. That means Joe would be hitting SOMETHING...an arm, shoulder whatever and those add up. Due to Fraziers bob, weave and swarm style you know he will end up inside where he can land to the body. Throughout Cooney's career Gerry was mostly the aggressor and I don't recall him being adept at tying a man up. Another instance where Joe will be able to damage inside.

Unless Cooney can catch Joe coming in with a shot which would magnify the power OR Cooney goes for broke and hooks with the hooker and comes out on top I believe Smokin Joe can wear him down. It won't be easy though and I think that this would be a really exciting matchup.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by spion

I am a huge fan of Smokin Joe and this matchup I wouldn't take lightly. Many are talking about Cooney having a weak chin, but the 81 version mentioned here doesn't seem that way to me. Cooney took some hellacious shots against Holmes and was still in the fight for 13 fast paced rounds. Thats after over a year of inactivity. Cooney's right was (IMO and Ken Nortons as well) underestimated. His leverage on the hook and uppercut was tremendous and at six feet six and a half inches tall it would be difficult for Frazier to land to the head out of the crouch.

Problem for Gerry Cooney is that he tended to negate his height when opting for power against shorter opponents. Against Frazier, George Foreman early on looked like a matador as he moved away and used lateral movement to avoid Smokin Joe's onslaught. Cooney never demonstrated at that time such movement. That means Joe would be hitting SOMETHING...an arm, shoulder whatever and those add up. Due to Fraziers bob, weave and swarm style you know he will end up inside where he can land to the body. Throughout Cooney's career Gerry was mostly the aggressor and I don't recall him being adept at tying a man up. Another instance where Joe will be able to damage inside.

Unless Cooney can catch Joe coming in with a shot which would magnify the power OR Cooney goes for broke and hooks with the hooker and comes out on top I believe Smokin Joe can wear him down. It won't be easy though and I think that this would be a really exciting matchup.

Larry Holmes hurt Cooney early. Cooney actually turned his back and ran away in the 2nd round. Yeah, he got up and took a whole lot more, but against Frazier, who would be right up in his face, Cooney wouldn't have the chance to turn. He'd be getting battered left right and centre and stopped.

I like Cooney, he seemed/seems like a really nice guy. He was a very good fighter. But I don't think he is on Frazier's level.

If it means anything I still think the Cooney that fought Holmes would have a field day with any version of Wlad. I don't think Cooney is poor by any means, just don't think he has a chance against Frazier.

[round15]

Originally Posted by spion

Against Frazier, George Foreman early on looked like a matador as he moved away and used lateral movement to avoid Smokin Joe's onslaught. Cooney never demonstrated at that time such movement.

Foreman barely used any type of lateral movement against Frazier in 1973. Foreman was never known for lateral movement. The little bit of lateral movement he showed against Gregorio Peralta all but vanished after realizing his the power of his own punches. Which fight did you watch?

Boxing is not putting both of your hands on your opponents shoulders and shoving him aside repeatedly to create punching room. Foreman practically made the first Frazier fight a wrestling contest with all of his holding, pushing, shoving and the grabbing of Frazier's shoulders.

Lennox Lewis picked this Foreman illegal tactics and used it better than he did, which is to lean on top the opponents shoulders and punch from underneath.

[spion]

Originally Posted by round15

Foreman barely used any type of lateral movement against Frazier in 1973. Foreman was never known for lateral movement. The little bit of lateral movement he showed against Gregorio Peralta all but vanished after realizing his the power of his own punches. Which fight did you watch?

Boxing is not putting both of your hands on your opponents shoulders and shoving him aside repeatedly to create punching room. Foreman practically made the first Frazier fight a wrestling contest with all of his holding, pushing, shoving and the grabbing of Frazier's shoulders.

Lennox Lewis picked this Foreman illegal tactics and used it better than he did, which is to lean on top the opponents shoulders and punch from underneath.

The pushing tactic warranted a warning from the ref. This constant pushing kept Frazier from boring in on George and set Frazier up at the end of Foremans power shots. The matador description I used was intended to describe Foreman spinning Frazier after Joe would lunge in with a hook. Foreman would slip the punch and redirect Joe's energy while he would slide over outside the power. Not bouncing lateral movement but not directly backing up. This is in contrast to Cooney who pretty much was directly in front of you unless he cornered you and would step over to land a shot.

Thanks for bringing my vague and confusing description to my attention. I learn so much from all the boxers on this site.