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Old 07-31-2009, 01:10 AM   #31
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by round15 View Post
Notice Frazier, circling, jabbing, backing up and using his feet when Chuvalo puts the pressure on him. Also, he used his underappreciated right hand, throwing more right hooks and right uppercuts in against Chuvalo.

Joe did none of this against Foreman, especially in the poor shape he was and stood right in front of George trading power shots, primarily with the left hook alone.

He fought a much smarter fight against Chuvalo, using his feet to set up the jab and left hook. Frazier barely threw any jabs against George in the first fight in Jamaica, and you can add that Foreman had some help from Mercante's officiating job.
He wasn't a smarter fighter, just a better conditioned/primed one. Joe tries using foot work a bit but George stuns and hurts him early and much before he actually goes down. Really, he just doesn't and can't get off.

Also, a difference is he's up in Chuvalo's grill. Joe had trouble getting there. I see your point, but it's not like Frazier didn't try to use lateral movement and angles.
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Old 07-31-2009, 01:17 AM   #32
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

I have to agree with many points OCD brings.

One thing though, is that Tua does have power and solid chin. The thing is, he needs to work effectively with Frazier and if he can disturb that rythm of Frazier's head movement than Frazier is in big trouble in my eyes. I think Frazier would most likely win a decision but a Tua KO isn't out of the question. Frazier has to be quick, using lateral movement, angles, and actually suffocating the bigger man so he can't get off on him.

Tua needs to break Frazier's rythm, work effectively and try jabbing to slow Joe down and set up his bigger punches. I actually think if Tua can make it a left hook contest he would beat Frazier because Frazier has advantages in every other way. He can't get in a bomb off with Tua, he has to fight intelligently and economically. Tua's power will be big because he can't outbox a prime Frazier. He has to do body-work to match Tua's and he has to find room to bomb out Frazier. He has to use his strength to push off Frazier, lean on Frazier in clinches when he can and push off to fight in the mid-range.

If the fight becomes a mid-range slugfest, Tua should win. If Frazier fights his gameplan, he'll come out alive with a decisive decision.
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:09 AM   #33
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Are you kidding? Just because Tua had potential doesn't mean he was actually that good. How is this a bad stylistic match-up against Frazier? I see Tua having no advantage stylistically over Frazier. He comes forward like Frazier except without the speed or head movement. Frazier holds every advantage over Tua except for power and chin. Size means nothing; and by your logic, Frazier is bigger so he'll win. Frazier gets his punches in first and lands often with his left hook. He will also be able to hit Tua's body frequently which will wear Tua down. When the fight wears on, Frazier's bodypunching will make Tua tired and his workrate will slow down; this is where Frazier will take over the fight and will win a comfortable decision.

Tua is there to be hit; much more so than Frazier as he offers no head movement. Plus his footspeed is very and slow and he doesn't apply fast pressure like Frazier. Frazier might be able to drive Tua back and really punish him.
Its not that he had potential, he fufilled it, he just couldnt sustain it. Do you really think Frazier would fight him behind a jab moving and keeping him at range? Frazier wasnt a slickster either. Wouldnt you think hes going to get closer and try and mix it up more?? Size means nothing? Are you kidding? Frazier was about an inch and half taller than Tua and a borderline cruiserweight in todays terms. He wasnt a big heavyweight. Tua at his best was around 228-230. I also think your underestimating his defense. He was very good at blocking punches and countering in the early part of his career. He had to when he was forced to chop down a lot of the boxers he faced, and these were big strong guys. Frazier would get knocked out before any of his work could take any effect on Tua he was just too small. Foreman was able to do it too, because his style is closer to brawling than boxing back in the day, and Frazier only knew one way to fight and that was coming forward. Its stylistically a bad fight for Frazier and that spells doom for Frazier, in my opinion. It has nothing to do with who had the better overall skills.
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:25 AM   #34
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

I'll go with Tua here.
Neither guy is going to look for the other, and they'll be going toe to toe for 12-15 rounds.

I hate to say this, but Tua can withstand Joe's shots. I don't think the opposite is the case, not over the course of the entire fight. Tua did prove he could go 12 hard rounds with Ibeabuchi, so for that version of Tua stamina is not a problem.

Tua stops Joe in the mid to late rounds, after being outworked for most of the fight.
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:02 AM   #35
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
He wasn't a smarter fighter, just a better conditioned/primed one. Joe tries using foot work a bit but George stuns and hurts him early and much before he actually goes down. Really, he just doesn't and can't get off.

Also, a difference is he's up in Chuvalo's grill. Joe had trouble getting there. I see your point, but it's not like Frazier didn't try to use lateral movement and angles.
Thank you for at least understanding my point.

I believe Frazier fought a smarter fight and its obvious he was better conditioned in this fight and used better footwork against Chuvalo as opposed to being in poor condition and fighting Foreman with the wrong game plan.

Joe threw a lot more jabs and right hand shots against Chuvalo that he didn't against Foreman. He was also harder to hit when he's in shape with faster head movement. Also, Foreman didn't necessarily beat up Chuvalo and he's argued to this day that he could have taken Foreman out in the middle rounds because he was running out of gas. By this premise alone I believe that a prime Frazier might have been able to get past the early rounds and quite possible hurt George in the later rounds on route to a possible stoppage. I'm not saying it would have happened, but Foreman wouldn't KO the 1967 - 1970 conditioned Frazier in two rounds.
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:26 AM   #36
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Its not that he had potential, he fufilled it, he just couldnt sustain it. Do you really think Frazier would fight him behind a jab moving and keeping him at range? Frazier wasnt a slickster either. Wouldnt you think hes going to get closer and try and mix it up more?? Size means nothing? Are you kidding? Frazier was about an inch and half taller than Tua and a borderline cruiserweight in todays terms. He wasnt a big heavyweight. Tua at his best was around 228-230. I also think your underestimating his defense. He was very good at blocking punches and countering in the early part of his career. He had to when he was forced to chop down a lot of the boxers he faced, and these were big strong guys. Frazier would get knocked out before any of his work could take any effect on Tua he was just too small. Foreman was able to do it too, because his style is closer to brawling than boxing back in the day, and Frazier only knew one way to fight and that was coming forward. Its stylistically a bad fight for Frazier and that spells doom for Frazier, in my opinion. It has nothing to do with who had the better overall skills.
Tua weighing more has nothing to do with it. In fact Tua weighing that much for a short fighter like himself, is not an accomplishment. Tua's defense was a bit underrated but it still wasn't as good as Frazier's. Do you mean Frazier is too small? Either way, what does that have anything to do with it? Tua's style is nothing like Foreman's, you can't compare the two. Tua came forward like Frazier except without the type of head movement and speed that Frazier did. How is this a bad stylistic match-up when they both have the same style and when Frazier does it better? Frazier was able to even work angles a bit and he had a better jab. He was the much smarter fighter than Tua as well.

Tua was and will always be a poor man's Frazier with more power and a better chin. Frazier is the better bodypuncher and is faster overall; this what will win him the fight. Tua might put him down; but he won't keep him there.
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:34 AM   #37
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
I have to agree with many points OCD brings.

One thing though, is that Tua does have power and solid chin. The thing is, he needs to work effectively with Frazier and if he can disturb that rythm of Frazier's head movement than Frazier is in big trouble in my eyes. I think Frazier would most likely win a decision but a Tua KO isn't out of the question. Frazier has to be quick, using lateral movement, angles, and actually suffocating the bigger man so he can't get off on him.

Tua needs to break Frazier's rythm, work effectively and try jabbing to slow Joe down and set up his bigger punches. I actually think if Tua can make it a left hook contest he would beat Frazier because Frazier has advantages in every other way. He can't get in a bomb off with Tua, he has to fight intelligently and economically. Tua's power will be big because he can't outbox a prime Frazier. He has to do body-work to match Tua's and he has to find room to bomb out Frazier. He has to use his strength to push off Frazier, lean on Frazier in clinches when he can and push off to fight in the mid-range.

If the fight becomes a mid-range slugfest, Tua should win. If Frazier fights his gameplan, he'll come out alive with a decisive decision.
It's OBC!
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:34 PM   #38
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
I have to agree with many points OCD brings.

One thing though, is that Tua does have power and solid chin. The thing is, he needs to work effectively with Frazier and if he can disturb that rythm of Frazier's head movement than Frazier is in big trouble in my eyes. I think Frazier would most likely win a decision but a Tua KO isn't out of the question. Frazier has to be quick, using lateral movement, angles, and actually suffocating the bigger man so he can't get off on him.

Tua needs to break Frazier's rythm, work effectively and try jabbing to slow Joe down and set up his bigger punches. I actually think if Tua can make it a left hook contest he would beat Frazier because Frazier has advantages in every other way. He can't get in a bomb off with Tua, he has to fight intelligently and economically. Tua's power will be big because he can't outbox a prime Frazier. He has to do body-work to match Tua's and he has to find room to bomb out Frazier. He has to use his strength to push off Frazier, lean on Frazier in clinches when he can and push off to fight in the mid-range.

If the fight becomes a mid-range slugfest, Tua should win. If Frazier fights his gameplan, he'll come out alive with a decisive decision.
Tua is not the bigger man against Frazier. Joe was one quarter inch shy of 6 feet, while Tua was barely 5'10, so that's not accurate. Tua definitely has power in both hands, more in the right than Frazier, but I doubt he'd be able to offset Joe's head movement as the smaller man. Definitely not a prime Joe Frazier. Frazier's upper body strength and punching power is underrated on this forum. Prime Frazier had strong shoulders and legs comparable to Tua's. Loads of people conclude that Frazier had no right hand which is false. Frazier wasn't known for his right hand but the punch wasn't absent from his ****nal. In fact, Joe would follow up with right hooks and uppercuts to the body when he was inside.

Last edited by round15; 07-31-2009 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:46 PM   #39
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Tua weighing more has nothing to do with it. In fact Tua weighing that much for a short fighter like himself, is not an accomplishment. Tua's defense was a bit underrated but it still wasn't as good as Frazier's. Do you mean Frazier is too small? Either way, what does that have anything to do with it? Tua's style is nothing like Foreman's, you can't compare the two. Tua came forward like Frazier except without the type of head movement and speed that Frazier did. How is this a bad stylistic match-up when they both have the same style and when Frazier does it better? Frazier was able to even work angles a bit and he had a better jab. He was the much smarter fighter than Tua as well.

Tua was and will always be a poor man's Frazier with more power and a better chin. Frazier is the better bodypuncher and is faster overall; this what will win him the fight. Tua might put him down; but he won't keep him there.
Weight does matter when your talking about a power puncher who is fit. Most of Tuas weight was in his legs thus the good chin. If he had bad head movement and defense there was no way he would be able to have gone 12 with both Lennox Lewis and Ike Ibeabuchi, far bigger punchers than the smaller Fraizer. Your last paragraph sums up my thoughts on why I believe Frazier would lose, more power and a better chin. I used the Foreman angle because Foreman was not a pure boxer, he also mixed it up and was a powerful man. Frazier might be better at this style, but David had the two great equalizers as you said, which would allow him to find the eventual opening and down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier!!! Just my opinion.
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Tua is not the bigger man against Frazier. Joe was one quarter inch shy of 6 feet, while Tua was barely 5'10, so that's not accurate. Tua definitely has power in both hands, more in the right than Frazier, but I doubt he'd be able to offset Joe's head movement as the smaller man. Definitely not a prime Joe Frazier. Frazier's upper body strength and punching power in underrated on this forum. Prime Frazier had strong shoulders and legs comparable to Tua's. Loads of people conclude that Frazier had no right hand which is false. Frazier wasn't known for his right hand but the punch wasn't absent from his ****nal. In fact, Joe would follow up with right hooks and uppercuts to the body when he was inside.
Girth and solidness is what the point is being made by me. Tua was solid and fast at 226. Do you think stylistically Frazier could go 12 complete rounds with his style keeping Tua off balance the entire time?
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Old 07-31-2009, 01:15 PM   #41
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

Yes, Frazier was a much better fighrer, and yes Tua was a waste of potential in many ways. However, I find it hard to believe a smaller swarmer is walking through a bigger, stronger power-puncher with a granite chin. It just doesn't add up. Of course Frazier was the more skilled, offensively as well as defensively, but the fact remains that he still has Tua in his face pretty much all night long. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to see Frazier adopt a style like he did in the second Foreman fight.
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Old 07-31-2009, 01:47 PM   #42
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Girth and solidness is what the point is being made by me. Tua was solid and fast at 226. Do you think stylistically Frazier could go 12 complete rounds with his style keeping Tua off balance the entire time?
Yeah, easily. Why? Tua is a heavier fighter, doesn't have nowhere near the endurance or conditioning, and he would wilt under the pressure and pace of a prime Joe Frazier. Prime Joe fought with the speed of light heavyweight according to Bob Foster. The pace that he set against Ali in the FOTC is a relative middleweight pace. Besides, Joe was faster than Tua, showed better head movement and wouldn't be the easy target for Tua that some suggest in this forum.

If Chris Byrd's featherdusting body punches were able to hurt Tua, what kind of hurt would Joe Frazier's signature body punches do to Tua?
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:41 PM   #43
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Yeah, easily. Why? Tua is a heavier fighter, doesn't have nowhere near the endurance or conditioning, and he would wilt under the pressure and pace of a prime Joe Frazier. Prime Joe fought with the speed of light heavyweight according to Bob Foster. The pace that he set against Ali in the FOTC is a relative middleweight pace. Besides, Joe was faster than Tua, showed better head movement and wouldn't be the easy target for Tua that some suggest in this forum.

If Chris Byrd's featherdusting body punches were able to hurt Tua, what kind of hurt would Joe Frazier's signature body punches do to Tua?
Tua holds the record with Ibeabuchi for throwing the most punches in a 12 round heavyweight fight.

No to make excuses for Tua, but that wasnt the same active fighter who fought consistently against the top echelon of the division as in the Ibeabuchi fight. That was an inconsistent Tua that worked more on his physique for that fight. He wasnt in any kind of fighting condition really.
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Old 07-31-2009, 04:16 PM   #44
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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It's OBC!
Right. Well at least I'm on your side here.

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Tua is not the bigger man against Frazier. Joe was one quarter inch shy of 6 feet, while Tua was barely 5'10, so that's not accurate. Tua definitely has power in both hands, more in the right than Frazier, but I doubt he'd be able to offset Joe's head movement as the smaller man. Definitely not a prime Joe Frazier. Frazier's upper body strength and punching power in underrated on this forum. Prime Frazier had strong shoulders and legs comparable to Tua's. Loads of people conclude that Frazier had no right hand which is false. Frazier wasn't known for his right hand but the punch wasn't absent from his ****nal. In fact, Joe would follow up with right hooks and uppercuts to the body when he was inside.
Well he's not taller, but bigger overall in terms of size and weight. Just not height. In a battle of getting the lowest, I don't think this is a bad thing. Tua is the bigger ball of a fighte in this case. I don't think Joe's strength or power are underrated here. Frazier's right hand was used in close quarters, mostly to hook the body and that left hand was his missle. The disparity between the two punchers was significant enough to tell. What other ATG fighter was less balanced of a puncher? It's not that Frazier's right was so terrible or the worst in the world. It's just his left is one of the best.


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Girth and solidness is what the point is being made by me. Tua was solid and fast at 226. Do you think stylistically Frazier could go 12 complete rounds with his style keeping Tua off balance the entire time?
Thank you. You know I try giving fair input and do believe it would be a tough fight for both but I give Frazier has dues in many areas in this matchup. You think they try making natural allies instead of squabbling about size when it's obvious I'm not talking about height, which they are comparably in as well.
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Old 07-31-2009, 05:04 PM   #45
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

Again its all about the styles. Two of basically the same styled fighters one with better skills, one with a large advantage in chin and power.
Evander Holyfield actually boxed very well against Tua when preparing for Tyson, and he wasnt the biggest guy, but he knew not to go to war with Tua, and used his jab and angles to keep Tua off balance. Same with Rahman in two fights, but that just wasnt Joes style.
As much as Tyson had equal power, more speed, and was just about as sturdy as Tua, I still find myself having a hard time picking a clear winner, just because of the styles. Tua really does have murderous power.
In contrast I would pick Ali easily over Tua.
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