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Old 07-31-2009, 06:08 PM   #46
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Weight does matter when your talking about a power puncher who is fit. Most of Tuas weight was in his legs thus the good chin. If he had bad head movement and defense there was no way he would be able to have gone 12 with both Lennox Lewis and Ike Ibeabuchi, far bigger punchers than the smaller Fraizer. Your last paragraph sums up my thoughts on why I believe Frazier would lose, more power and a better chin. I used the Foreman angle because Foreman was not a pure boxer, he also mixed it up and was a powerful man. Frazier might be better at this style, but David had the two great equalizers as you said, which would allow him to find the eventual opening and down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier!!! Just my opinion.
You can a make a good case. But! Tua is nothing like Foreman. Foreman liked to work from the mid range and push his opponents around the ring. Tua likes to get right up in the fighter's grill. Frazier might go down, but like I said, he's definetly not keeping him there.

Frazier will be scoring on Tua all night long. Plus, if he doesn't have success with his first gameplan. He'll circle a bit, jab, set up angles with his vastly superior footspeed and set up his left hook. He'll use his superior handspeed to land on Tua all night. He wins a UD.
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:29 PM   #47
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

People underestimate the Tua Mans skills. He had a very solid shoulder roll defense and was rarely ever hit cleanly. This is much of the reason he's regarded as having such a granite chin.

Watch young Tua fight, he wasn't some statue with zero head movement that he later became against Byrd/Lewis etc. Ike threw a zillion punches against him from weird angles and he was still never in trouble and did a tremendous job of avoiding punishment. His stamina should also never be a ? mark when we're talking about him in h2h matchups at his best. He won the late rounds against Ike and nearly took him out in the 11th, and the number of quality fighters he knocked out late shows the fact that he brings it from start to finish.
Also, Bonavena showed the power to hurt Frazier badly and while that was a green Frazier, Tuas power is on another level from guys like Oscar. It's worth noting the two biggest punchers he faced dropped Frazier, and it's also worth noting that apart from Big George, Frazier never faced any other big time punchers in an era that had a lot of them. Not saying Joe directly avoided them, but his management did the right thing and tried to steer him towards more boxers than big punchers. Frazier against stick and movers is poison, simple as that. 1967 Ali is the only boxer I pick to beat Frazier, Holmes-Frazier is even. Fraziers style was made to avoid straight shots, hooks and uppercuts Frazier could be hit with.

With all that being said, I'm going to pick Frazier in a tough fight from start to finish. Tua drops him early and Frazier looks like he's in trouble, but after seeing Foreman have to damn near kill him before it was stopped (and it could be argued that Frazier could have continued!) I see Frazier being able to survive Tua. His workrate edge is the difference here and he wins a very competitive but clear decision. Bad matchup for Frazier though and I wouldn't be surprised if a Tua left hook ends it.
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:51 PM   #48
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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You can a make a good case. But! Tua is nothing like Foreman. Foreman liked to work from the mid range and push his opponents around the ring. Tua likes to get right up in the fighter's grill. Frazier might go down, but like I said, he's definetly not keeping him there.

Frazier will be scoring on Tua all night long. Plus, if he doesn't have success with his first gameplan. He'll circle a bit, jab, set up angles with his vastly superior footspeed and set up his left hook. He'll use his superior handspeed to land on Tua all night. He wins a UD.
Again the Foreman scenario was used simply to show what a fighter that wasnt a stick and move and big puncher could do to Frazier. To me the fight would be at even closer quarters and spell doom for Frazier because of it.
Good post Muchmore, I agree about Tua in the early days, he was a very good fighter, but I still give the edge to Tua if I had to pick.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:40 PM   #49
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by Muchmoore View Post
People underestimate the Tua Mans skills. He had a very solid shoulder roll defense and was rarely ever hit cleanly. This is much of the reason he's regarded as having such a granite chin.

Watch young Tua fight, he wasn't some statue with zero head movement that he later became against Byrd/Lewis etc. Ike threw a zillion punches against him from weird angles and he was still never in trouble and did a tremendous job of avoiding punishment. His stamina should also never be a ? mark when we're talking about him in h2h matchups at his best. He won the late rounds against Ike and nearly took him out in the 11th, and the number of quality fighters he knocked out late shows the fact that he brings it from start to finish.
Also, Bonavena showed the power to hurt Frazier badly and while that was a green Frazier, Tuas power is on another level from guys like Oscar. It's worth noting the two biggest punchers he faced dropped Frazier, and it's also worth noting that apart from Big George, Frazier never faced any other big time punchers in an era that had a lot of them. Not saying Joe directly avoided them, but his management did the right thing and tried to steer him towards more boxers than big punchers. Frazier against stick and movers is poison, simple as that. 1967 Ali is the only boxer I pick to beat Frazier, Holmes-Frazier is even. Fraziers style was made to avoid straight shots, hooks and uppercuts Frazier could be hit with.

With all that being said, I'm going to pick Frazier in a tough fight from start to finish. Tua drops him early and Frazier looks like he's in trouble, but after seeing Foreman have to damn near kill him before it was stopped (and it could be argued that Frazier could have continued!) I see Frazier being able to survive Tua. His workrate edge is the difference here and he wins a very competitive but clear decision. Bad matchup for Frazier though and I wouldn't be surprised if a Tua left hook ends it.

Great post in which I agree with most of. I think that this might be a bad matchup for Frazier, but not stylistcally like most say. I pretty much see it the same way.
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Old 07-31-2009, 07:43 PM   #50
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Again the Foreman scenario was used simply to show what a fighter that wasnt a stick and move and big puncher could do to Frazier. To me the fight would be at even closer quarters and spell doom for Frazier because of it.
Good post Muchmore, I agree about Tua in the early days, he was a very good fighter, but I still give the edge to Tua if I had to pick.
That doesn't mean anything. Watch the second Bonavena fight, Frazier dominated it. To me, Frazier is the better in-fighter, has an edge in workrate, is the better bodypuncher and is faster all the way around. These advantages would see him through to the end to win a decision over Tua.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:01 PM   #51
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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That doesn't mean anything. Watch the second Bonavena fight, Frazier dominated it. To me, Frazier is the better in-fighter, has an edge in workrate, is the better bodypuncher and is faster all the way around. These advantages would see him through to the end to win a decision over Tua.
Tua by KO...Tag your it.. Just kidding. Would be an interesting fight. I always wanted to see Tua face Tyson, just because like Frazier it would have been an atomic explosion, and that fight was possible at one point.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:12 PM   #52
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Tua by KO...Tag your it.. Just kidding. Would be an interesting fight. I always wanted to see Tua face Tyson, just because like Frazier it would have been an atomic explosion, and that fight was possible at one point.
Frazier by UD!

I would've loved to see Tyson-Tua at any point in there careers. Hell, they could have one know and I'd still be interested.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:24 PM   #53
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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You can a make a good case. But! Tua is nothing like Foreman. Foreman liked to work from the mid range and push his opponents around the ring. Frazier will be scoring on Tua all night long. Plus, if he doesn't have success with his first gameplan. He'll circle a bit, jab, set up angles with his vastly superior footspeed and set up his left hook.
This is exactly what Frazier should have done against Foreman instead of standing right in front of the power zone, and rushing right back into the power zone after the knockdowns. He fought a smarter fight in 1976 but was pretty much shot, attempting to gain revenge against Foreman. Conditioning was factor in the first fight and Frazier didn't exude the same respect to training to George that he paid Ali, and it cost him huge against Foreman. Foreman probably doesn't get away with the pushing, shoving and shoulder grabbing that he did against Frazier with another referee in charge in 1973, but it wouldn't have mattered if Joe was his normal fighting self. Prime Frazier gives Foreman and any other heavyweight a very tough fight, and George doesn't KO a prime Frazier inside two rounds.

Tua is not beating prime Frazier, and the only fighters in heavyweight history I give a legit shot at stopping prime Frazier is Foreman, Liston, and maybe Lennox Lewis. Still, Joe Frazier 1967 - 1970 would be a tough fight for any heavyweight in the history of the sport.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:47 PM   #54
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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This is exactly what Frazier should have done against Foreman instead of standing right in front of the power zone, and rushing right back into the power zone after the knockdowns. He fought a smarter fight in 1976 but was pretty much shot, attempting to gain revenge against Foreman. Conditioning was factor in the first fight and Frazier didn't exude the same respect to training to George that he paid Ali, and it cost him huge against Foreman. Foreman probably doesn't get away with the pushing, shoving and shoulder grabbing that he did against Frazier with another referee in charge in 1973, but it wouldn't have mattered if Joe was his normal fighting self. Prime Frazier gives Foreman and any other heavyweight a very tough fight, and George doesn't KO a prime Frazier inside two rounds.

Tua is not beating prime Frazier, and the only fighters in heavyweight history I give a legit shot at stopping prime Frazier is Foreman, Liston, and maybe Lennox Lewis. Still, Joe Frazier 1967 - 1970 would be a tough fight for any heavyweight in the history of the sport.
I agree.
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:54 PM   #55
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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This is exactly what Frazier should have done against Foreman instead of standing right in front of the power zone, and rushing right back into the power zone after the knockdowns. He fought a smarter fight in 1976 but was pretty much shot, attempting to gain revenge against Foreman. Conditioning was factor in the first fight and Frazier didn't exude the same respect to training to George that he paid Ali, and it cost him huge against Foreman. Foreman probably doesn't get away with the pushing, shoving and shoulder grabbing that he did against Frazier with another referee in charge in 1973, but it wouldn't have mattered if Joe was his normal fighting self. Prime Frazier gives Foreman and any other heavyweight a very tough fight, and George doesn't KO a prime Frazier inside two rounds.

Tua is not beating prime Frazier, and the only fighters in heavyweight history I give a legit shot at stopping prime Frazier is Foreman, Liston, and maybe Lennox Lewis. Still, Joe Frazier 1967 - 1970 would be a tough fight for any heavyweight in the history of the sport.
Only fighter you give a legit shot? That my friend is ridiculous. Ali doesn't have a legit shot? Tyson doesn't have a legit shot? Bowe, Holyfield, Marciano don't have a legit shot?

When you say things like this, you're overrating the man.
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:03 PM   #56
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Only fighter you give a legit shot? That my friend is ridiculous. Ali doesn't have a legit shot? Tyson doesn't have a legit shot? Bowe, Holyfield, Marciano don't have a legit shot?

When you say things like this, you're overrating the man.
Oh wow. I didn't see that. Yes Ali has more than a legit shot, same with Tyson and Marciano. I think Bowe's defense is total crap but he can make it a good fight. Holyfield I see losing a decision to Joe.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:10 PM   #57
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Only fighter you give a legit shot? That my friend is ridiculous. Ali doesn't have a legit shot? Tyson doesn't have a legit shot? Bowe, Holyfield, Marciano don't have a legit shot?

When you say things like this, you're overrating the man.
Not talking about a legit shot at beating Frazier by decision, I'm talking about a legit shot at KO'ing the 1967 - 1970 version of Frazier. Marciano has a legit shot at outworking prime Frazier and winning a decision because he has comparable stamina. However, Marciano is not KOing prime Frazier early. Sure, Marciano has enough late power to KO Frazier, but it's unlikely. Bowe wouldn't survive prime Frazier's head movement and body attack. Eddie Futch himself said that the prime version of Frazier would give Bowe serious problems. Holyfield gave Bowe big time trouble and he didn't illustrate one quarter of the head movement that signified Frazier's attack. As for Evander, please my friend, he's has the heart to last maybe the 12 round distance with Frazier, but a beefed up cruiserweight is not KOing Joe early, not happening once again.

How are any of these men KOing a prime Frazier who was a very difficult fighter to hit cleanly according to the greatest? Sure, Ali landed lots of punches against Frazier, but he sure missed a whole lot as well. Bowe, Holyfield and Marciano are light years away in terms of speed compared to Ali. Only Tyson can be compared relatively in terms of hand speed with Ali.

Tyson is not KOing a prime Joe Frazier from the late 60's, neither is Marciano, Holyfield, Bowe or Ali. Not in the fashion that Foreman did to Frazier inside two rounds, 1973. Tyson may have this version of Frazier down, but I don't believe he could KO this version of Frazier. If Joe answers the the bell for round five against any of the fighters you've mentioned, which is more than likely, the fight plays well into his favour, being one of the best heavyweight fighters in the middle rounds. Frazier's pace increases from the early rounds and he caught Ali on the ropes repeatedly. There's no reason not to believe he wouldn't catch up to the slower heavyweight fighters.

You're underrating Frazier in his title reign if you suggest any of the above men KO this version of Frazier like Foreman did. It's not happening. I'll give Joe credit for his toughness and durability when he was champion.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:14 PM   #58
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Oh wow. I didn't see that. Yes Ali has more than a legit shot, same with Tyson and Marciano. I think Bowe's defense is total crap but he can make it a good fight. Holyfield I see losing a decision to Joe.
Anyone has to admit that when pairing ATG fighters that more times than not each fighter is going to have some chance. And Frazier who isn't even considered to be a top 3 fighter in terms of H2H (Let's face it he's not an Ali or Lewis in this department to most people) That's a rather bold statement. Holyfield versus Frazier would be tough. I think Frazier edges him due to his work-rate and stamina. Holyfield is very balanced and easily one of the best 12 round HW fighters. Probably not a great matchup for him unless he can hurt and put away Frazier, something I don't see. Bowe versus Frazier would be interesting. Bowe postivies is his ability to infight for such a big tall man is one of the best if not best I've ever seen. That might be a stretch to some but at his peak he was terrific inside. I'd have to think on that fight in terms of picking someone. You know how I feel about Tyson and Marciano, though.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:21 PM   #59
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Not talking about a legit shot at beating Frazier by decision, I'm talking about a legit shot at KO'ing the 1967 - 1970 version of Frazier. Marciano has a legit shot at outworking prime Frazier and winning a decision because he has comparable stamina. However, Marciano is not KOing prime Frazier early. Sure, Marciano has enough late power to KO Frazier, but it's unlikely. Bowe wouldn't survive prime Frazier's head movement and body attack. Eddie Futch himself said that the prime version of Frazier would give Bowe serious problems. Holyfield gave Bowe big time trouble and he didn't illustrate one quarter of the head movement that signified Frazier's attack. As for Evander, please my friend, he's has the heart to last maybe the 12 round distance with Frazier, but a beefed up cruiserweight is not KOing Joe early, not happening once again.

How are any of these men KOing a prime Frazier who was a very difficult fighter to hit cleanly according to the greatest? Sure, Ali landed lots of punches against Frazier, but he sure missed a whole lot as well. Bowe, Holyfield and Marciano are light years away in terms of speed compared to Ali. Only Tyson can be compared relatively in terms of hand speed with Ali.

Tyson is not KOing a prime Joe Frazier from the late 60's, neither is Marciano, Holyfield, Bowe or Ali. Not in the fashion that Foreman did to Frazier inside two rounds, 1973. Tyson may have this version of Frazier down, but I don't believe he could KO this version of Frazier. If Joe answers the the bell for round five against any of the fighters you've mentioned, which is more than likely, the fight plays well into his favour, being one of the best heavyweight fighters in the middle rounds. Frazier's pace increases from the early rounds and he caught Ali on the ropes repeatedly. There's no reason not to believe he wouldn't catch up to the slower heavyweight fighters.

You're underrating Frazier in his title reign if you suggest any of the above men KO this version of Frazier like Foreman did. It's not happening. I'll give Joe credit for his toughness and durability when he was champion.
I bolded it and everything and I still missed that one word. My bad. I never picked Holyfield over Frazier.

I still think Tyson KO's and or TKO's Frazier.

Marciano's a better fighter from round 5 onward because he finishes stronger.

If Marciano had Ali on the ropes like that he would have capitalized on it better.

This whole confusion arose under me missing the word "stopping." I guess I didn't take the literal approach and thought you meant "stopping" as in beating. I just probably missed that.

As for Koing him. I think Tyson has a legit shot to, though. It depends on what you consider legit I guess.

I think the confusion arose from you saying Tua isn't beating Frazier and then me thinking you were listing fighters that maybe could. I thought you meant "stopping" in a figurative sense.
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Old 08-01-2009, 06:10 AM   #60
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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I think Tua has a great shot of stopping him early. He is explosively fast, a huge puncher, has a great chin and Frazier plays right into his strengths .
Tua had fast hands ,but slow feet ,and his non effort against Lewis ,shows me he did not have the ticker of a Frazier.Tua has more one shot power and a better chin,but Frazier has better ring craft, is more elusive,and has more desire.Simply put he has bigger bollocks,and they take him to a dec.

Last edited by mcvey; 08-01-2009 at 09:14 AM.
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