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Old 08-01-2009, 08:48 AM   #61
rekcutnevets
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

David Tua will never be making it near a credible all time great top 10 list, like Mike Tyson arguably does; but both fighters had similarly short peaks to their careers. Tyson's best years were '86-'89, Tua's were '96-'98. I can't just look at Tua's entire career, and attempt to average it out. Everyone is always arguing the best version of Tyson, or Ali, or Liston vs. so and so; I have to try to do the same for Tua.

Tua use to come out hard
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Tua also carried his power late
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If Frazier stands his ground against Tua, like he tried in his first bout with Foreman, Tua wins rather early. I don't think that would be the case. I think Frazier would stay close, and step side to side as he did against Chuvalo. I think Frazier was faster than Tua, could set the pace, and out land Tua on his way to victory.

This is in no way an easy fight to call. I have no problems with those picking Tua.
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:43 AM   #62
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

Its funny but a lot of guys on this thread that are so adament about Frazier have to be old timers.
Lets be honest. Tua being a legit heavyweight at 226-230 "and at his best" (thats important in this), and Joe being a touch over 200 pounds has a very large disadvantage in the power department. Do you really think that Tua is just going to stand in front of Joe and let him bob and weave or do you think Tua would move forward and try to manhandle the smaller fighter? I fully understand that Frazier had more of the intangibles, but getting them off against a much physically larger fighter thats applies pressure and has a great chin over 12 rounds is easier said then done. It took guys in the 240-250 pound range to stand up to Tua and most of them never saw the final bell. These are big strong men. Joe wasnt a slickster, nor was he a boxer mover, so again the fight is going to be at close range, with Tua ultimately forcing his will on Frazier. I dont know of any fight in history that would match up two styles like this? Two world class fighters with somewhat similar styles, but one having a large advantage in the size department). Can anyone come up with one?
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:31 PM   #63
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Its funny but a lot of guys on this thread that are so adament about Frazier have to be old timers.
Lets be honest. Tua being a legit heavyweight at 226-230 "and at his best" (thats important in this), and Joe being a touch over 200 pounds has a very large disadvantage in the power department. Do you really think that Tua is just going to stand in front of Joe and let him bob and weave or do you think Tua would move forward and try to manhandle the smaller fighter? I fully understand that Frazier had more of the intangibles, but getting them off against a much physically larger fighter thats applies pressure and has a great chin over 12 rounds is easier said then done. It took guys in the 240-250 pound range to stand up to Tua and most of them never saw the final bell. These are big strong men. Joe wasnt a slickster, nor was he a boxer mover, so again the fight is going to be at close range, with Tua ultimately forcing his will on Frazier. I dont know of any fight in history that would match up two styles like this? Two world class fighters with somewhat similar styles, but one having a large advantage in the size department). Can anyone come up with one?
Frazier is the taller fighter, the busier fighter, has the reach advantage, and many on this forum actually underestimate his leg strength and upper body strength. Even though his upper body is smaller compared to Tua's, Joe had strong shoulders and legs.

When Frazier was in his prime years 1967 - 1970, his legs were perhaps the most important part of his attack aside from his left hook. Try bobbing, weaving, slipping and ducking, while setting up hooks off of jabs which he did in his early career. Keeping that up for 12 rounds or more is extremely exhausting and only fighters and trainers alike would understand what I'm talking about if you've actually done it in a boxing gym. It was only against Ali in the FOTC where an angry, but dominant Frazier try to load up on everything with his left hook to take out Ali.

I honestly don't think Tua would be able to impose his will on Frazier, who was a faster fighter in upper body movement and handspeed. Frazier was also one of the hardest fighters to hit cleanly, and Tua doesn't even come close to equalling the speed of post exile Ali, who missed quite a few punches against Frazier.

The Foreman comparison to Tua with respect to the power element in this matchup against Frazier is practically insignificant because Tua doesn't bring the size, reach, and upper body strength Foreman has when he destroyed Frazier in Jamaica. Tua's upper body strength can be compared with Foreman but George's power is universally considered at the top with only Shavers right hand recognized as a stronger punch. Lewis and Tyson are slightly behind. Once again, Foreman never fought the best version of Frazier, the 203 - 208 lb wrecking ball that Ali said would have destroyed him well insided the distance. It's easy for everyone to conclude that Tua would beat Frazier based on what happened in 1973 against Foreman because the power is certainly there. However, Foreman and Tua would have faced a different kind of fighter if Frazier comes into the fight in prime shape, pre FOTC.
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Old 08-04-2009, 01:01 PM   #64
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

The fighters who went the distance with Tua were often lighter than he was.

The first man to go the distance with Tua weighed 207 pounds.
210 lb Sean Hart went to an 8 round decision with Tua.
209 lb Jeff Wooden went to a 10 round majority decision.

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Old 08-04-2009, 01:21 PM   #65
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

Joe stops him with Body punches, Tua did not like it downstairs at all.
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Old 08-04-2009, 01:44 PM   #66
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by round15 View Post
Frazier is the taller fighter, the busier fighter, has the reach advantage, and many on this forum actually underestimate his leg strength and upper body strength. Even though his upper body is smaller compared to Tua's, Joe had strong shoulders and legs.

When Frazier was in his prime years 1967 - 1970, his legs were perhaps the most important part of his attack aside from his left hook. Try bobbing, weaving, slipping and ducking, while setting up hooks off of jabs which he did in his early career. Keeping that up for 12 rounds or more is extremely exhausting and only fighters and trainers alike would understand what I'm talking about if you've actually done it in a boxing gym. It was only against Ali in the FOTC where an angry, but dominant Frazier try to load up on everything with his left hook to take out Ali.

I honestly don't think Tua would be able to impose his will on Frazier, who was a faster fighter in upper body movement and handspeed. Frazier was also one of the hardest fighters to hit cleanly, and Tua doesn't even come close to equalling the speed of post exile Ali, who missed quite a few punches against Frazier.

The Foreman comparison to Tua with respect to the power element in this matchup against Frazier is practically insignificant because Tua doesn't bring the size, reach, and upper body strength Foreman has when he destroyed Frazier in Jamaica. Tua's upper body strength can be compared with Foreman but George's power is universally considered at the top with only Shavers right hand recognized as a stronger punch. Lewis and Tyson are slightly behind. Once again, Foreman never fought the best version of Frazier, the 203 - 208 lb wrecking ball that Ali said would have destroyed him well insided the distance. It's easy for everyone to conclude that Tua would beat Frazier based on what happened in 1973 against Foreman because the power is certainly there. However, Foreman and Tua would have faced a different kind of fighter if Frazier comes into the fight in prime shape, pre FOTC.
Actually its easier to throw hooks out of a bob or weave, certainly more effective ones. How would reach advantage make a difference in this fight?? Same with height? This fight would in no way resemble a boxing match. It would also not a be a tactical defensive fight. Both guys have similar forward moving offensive styles. Frazier most likely lands more, but Tua doesnt need to land as much, before Frazier goes nighty night.
Again the best Ive seen Tua physically was in the Ibeabuchi fight where they set a record for the most punches thrown in a heavyweight title fight, so to say Frazier would be busier than this version of Tua is a stretch.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:38 PM   #67
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Actually its easier to throw hooks out of a bob or weave, certainly more effective ones. How would reach advantage make a difference in this fight?? Same with height? This fight would in no way resemble a boxing match. It would also not a be a tactical defensive fight. Both guys have similar forward moving offensive styles. Frazier most likely lands more, but Tua doesnt need to land as much, before Frazier goes nighty night.
Again the best Ive seen Tua physically was in the Ibeabuchi fight where they set a record for the most punches thrown in a heavyweight title fight, so to say Frazier would be busier than this version of Tua is a stretch.

Nice post lefthook31.

I'm not talking about the punch stats after 12 rounds, I'm talking about 15 rounds of punching. Yeah sure, Tua and Ike set a record for most punches, but the pace they set was not like the furry that Frazier set moving in on his opponents in his early career when he was champion before FOTC. Frazier was a busy fighter his entire career and was known for punch output and volume. One Ibeabuchi and Tua fight is not the crowning illustration of high active punch involvement in a heavyweight fight.

Frazier being slightly taller and longer in reach could make the fight easier for him. Tua is nowhere near as fast as Frazier moving forward and he doesn't have the head movement as well. I don't doubt that Tua could put the pressure on Frazier and maybe him back up. Chuvalo and Quarry didn't have much luck, especially Chuvalo because the prime Frazier used much better footwork, pivoting off his lead foot out of trouble while jabbing in right back at Chuvalo to set up his hook. George Benton and Eddie Futch said Frazier was actually a better than decent stand up boxer when he wanted to be, surprising some opponents with his right hand.

By the way, it's not easier to throw hooks out of a bob or weave with maximum effect. It all depends on which side or which hand the hook is being thrown from. If you've actually boxed and tried to throw hooks from bobbing or ducking, you'll know that it's not as easy, especially to make it an effective punch. Accuracy is tough to come by when you're ducking in front of your opponent, unless you're fighting out of a Marciano low crouch. Throwing hooks off of a shoulder slip or weave is different than bobbing or ducking. When you drop your left shoulder slipping to that side, you are correct such that the immediate follow through from a left hook would hit your opponent square on the liver. Doubling it up is a different story because there's the reload factor. This is what made Tyson so deadly and dangerous when he was young. Mike was the only heavyweight I know that would use the double slip starting on the left without a punch, slipping to his right and finishing with a right hook to the body or on top. Tua never used the double slip, and I can't remember him using any type of concerted head movement due to the fact that he was a pretty powerful guy himself.
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Old 08-04-2009, 07:43 PM   #68
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by round15 View Post
Nice post lefthook31.

I'm not talking about the punch stats after 12 rounds, I'm talking about 15 rounds of punching. Yeah sure, Tua and Ike set a record for most punches, but the pace they set was not like the furry that Frazier set moving in on his opponents in his early career when he was champion before FOTC. Frazier was a busy fighter his entire career and was known for punch output and volume. One Ibeabuchi and Tua fight is not the crowning illustration of high active punch involvement in a heavyweight fight.

Frazier being slightly taller and longer in reach could make the fight easier for him. Tua is nowhere near as fast as Frazier moving forward and he doesn't have the head movement as well. I don't doubt that Tua could put the pressure on Frazier and maybe him back up. Chuvalo and Quarry didn't have much luck, especially Chuvalo because the prime Frazier used much better footwork, pivoting off his lead foot out of trouble while jabbing in right back at Chuvalo to set up his hook. George Benton and Eddie Futch said Frazier was actually a better than decent stand up boxer when he wanted to be, surprising some opponents with his right hand.

By the way, it's not easier to throw hooks out of a bob or weave with maximum effect. It all depends on which side or which hand the hook is being thrown from. If you've actually boxed and tried to throw hooks from bobbing or ducking, you'll know that it's not as easy, especially to make it an effective punch. Accuracy is tough to come by when you're ducking in front of your opponent, unless you're fighting out of a Marciano low crouch. Throwing hooks off of a shoulder slip or weave is different than bobbing or ducking. When you drop your left shoulder slipping to that side, you are correct such that the immediate follow through from a left hook would hit your opponent square on the liver. Doubling it up is a different story because there's the reload factor. This is what made Tyson so deadly and dangerous when he was young. Mike was the only heavyweight I know that would use the double slip starting on the left without a punch, slipping to his right and finishing with a right hook to the body or on top. Tua never used the double slip, and I can't remember him using any type of concerted head movement due to the fact that he was a pretty powerful guy himself.
Ive actually logged many of rounds myself. Im very familiar with how to deliver a hook, and for the sake of this arguement Frazier was a "lefthooker" so from a conventional stance that would make throwing a lefthook off of a bob, weave, dip or a spring whatever you want to call it, easier and most effective. Doubling the hook would also be a little easier from a forward momentum than standing still or throwing it off your back foot, something Frazier rarely did.
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:21 PM   #69
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Ive actually logged many of rounds myself. Im very familiar with how to deliver a hook, and for the sake of this arguement Frazier was a "lefthooker" so from a conventional stance that would make throwing a lefthook off of a bob, weave, dip or a spring whatever you want to call it, easier and most effective. Doubling the hook would also be a little easier from a forward momentum than standing still or throwing it off your back foot, something Frazier rarely did.
Agree with you.

Frazier actually doubled up his hook on occasion, so it's not as if the double-left-hook was absent from his arsenal. He talked about throwing double hooks to Ali, Quarry and Mathis is subsequent interviews. It is harder I believe to throw the left hook properly out of a ducking position, because unless your head is up facing your opponent out of a low crouch, the punch is not going to be accurate. It is easier like you said to throw hooks on either side from shoulder slipping, mainly because your body is already in position to throw low.

South American boxing is synonymous with the left hook to the body because most of them use a half guard position with the left hand across the ribs. The right hand would sometimes be held on the other side of the face with the left shoulder being used to block punches. I don't like this defense because it's hard to reload a right hand punch with the glove on the left side of the face.

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Old 08-05-2009, 02:06 PM   #70
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Foreman never fought the best version of Frazier
Agreed, Frazier was at the peak of his powers in his 12th pro fight against Eddie Machen. By the time he was 29 years of age in 1973, he was in such bad shape that his cornerman practicically had to carry him into the ring.
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Old 08-05-2009, 02:30 PM   #71
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

I think it might be a just plain ugly fight. Both are strong men and not afraid to get physical beyond punching. Tua more so I think.

I think Joe would win without a problem, but that it would not be pretty to watch.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:51 PM   #72
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by round15 View Post
Frazier is the taller fighter, the busier fighter, has the reach advantage, and many on this forum actually underestimate his leg strength and upper body strength. Even though his upper body is smaller compared to Tua's, Joe had strong shoulders and legs.

When Frazier was in his prime years 1967 - 1970, his legs were perhaps the most important part of his attack aside from his left hook. Try bobbing, weaving, slipping and ducking, while setting up hooks off of jabs which he did in his early career. Keeping that up for 12 rounds or more is extremely exhausting and only fighters and trainers alike would understand what I'm talking about if you've actually done it in a boxing gym. It was only against Ali in the FOTC where an angry, but dominant Frazier try to load up on everything with his left hook to take out Ali.

I honestly don't think Tua would be able to impose his will on Frazier, who was a faster fighter in upper body movement and handspeed. Frazier was also one of the hardest fighters to hit cleanly, and Tua doesn't even come close to equalling the speed of post exile Ali, who missed quite a few punches against Frazier.

The Foreman comparison to Tua with respect to the power element in this matchup against Frazier is practically insignificant because Tua doesn't bring the size, reach, and upper body strength Foreman has when he destroyed Frazier in Jamaica. Tua's upper body strength can be compared with Foreman but George's power is universally considered at the top with only Shavers right hand recognized as a stronger punch. Lewis and Tyson are slightly behind. Once again, Foreman never fought the best version of Frazier, the 203 - 208 lb wrecking ball that Ali said would have destroyed him well insided the distance. It's easy for everyone to conclude that Tua would beat Frazier based on what happened in 1973 against Foreman because the power is certainly there. However, Foreman and Tua would have faced a different kind of fighter if Frazier comes into the fight in prime shape, pre FOTC.
Well stated. Good point about the legs of Frazier. I also like how you note that Frazier's prime years were '67-'70. I have been ridiculed here for my belief that Frazier was slightly past prime for the FOTC, but that is my gut belief. He did summon all of what he had that night against Ali.

BTW, if anybody studies that 15th round in the FOTC, sometime shortly after the knockdown Frazier had Ali in trouble again with a stiff left. Ali seemed out on his feet momentarily but Frazier failed to follow up. Don Dunphy saw the same thing and called it as it happened. If Frazier had followed up Ali might have been down again. Maybe Joe was simply too tired and missed the moment.
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Old 08-05-2009, 11:17 PM   #73
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Agreed, Frazier was at the peak of his powers in his 12th pro fight against Eddie Machen. By the time he was 29 years of age in 1973, he was in such bad shape that his cornerman practicically had to carry him into the ring.
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Old 08-06-2009, 03:50 PM   #74
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Well stated. Good point about the legs of Frazier. I also like how you note that Frazier's prime years were '67-'70. I have been ridiculed here for my belief that Frazier was slightly past prime for the FOTC, but that is my gut belief. He did summon all of what he had that night against Ali.

BTW, if anybody studies that 15th round in the FOTC, sometime shortly after the knockdown Frazier had Ali in trouble again with a stiff left. Ali seemed out on his feet momentarily but Frazier failed to follow up. Don Dunphy saw the same thing and called it as it happened. If Frazier had followed up Ali might have been down again. Maybe Joe was simply too tired and missed the moment.
Agree with you Yancey, thanx for the post.

I have also been ridiculed here for my beliefs regarding Frazier's condition and prime years as well. There's no denying that Joe was nowhere near shot for the FOTC, because his body was technically in the best shape of his career at 205.5 lbs. However, he was clearly deteriorating somewhat medically because he was avoiding cataract surgery for more than a couple of years. Add to the fact that his blood pressure problems were worsening, which makes his effort against Ali and the fast pace he set in the FOTC that much more remarkable. I haven't seen another heavyweight since Frazier who was quicker, bobbing, weaving and moving forward to attack the opponent. Only Mike Tyson can compare to Frazier in terms of style and movement. Marciano and Dempsey fought with low, stalking, crouches, emphasizing right hand power. The difference between Tyson and Frazier is that Tyson's pressure was based more on single and double shoulder slips to either side moving foward, while throwing both hooks to the body and head, sometimes off of jab. Frazier bobbed, weaved and ducked away from punches whereas Tyson didn't duck away from punches as much.

Older Jamaicans that I've spoken to who were at the fight in 1973 told me they were surprised at the conditioning of Joe Frazier and how different he looked from his prime shape. Interestingly enough, two of the many that I spoke to believed Foreman would KO Frazier while the rest believed Foreman wouldn't make it past round 7 against Frazier, which was a fairly accurate prediction considering the premise of the fight. George was barely tested, didn't fight many named opponents except a fairly worn out Gregorio Peralta, and of course George Chuvalo, who still feels that he was cheated by the referee stopping the fight early. This is why I still believe George would have had a much tougher fight against the Frazier of 1967 - 1970. Can't say that Frazier would win but if he answers the bell for round 6 or 7 against George, the fight certainly falls into Joe's favour due to the fact that Foreman has proven that stamina is not his forte and his punches lose a little steam.

As for the FOTC, I do remember Don Dunphy in the commentary saying that Joe would have finished Ali if he had followed up on the left hook shot he landed after Ali got up from the round 15 knockdown. That was a wicked shot that a tired Frazier landed that snapped Ali's head back. I think Joe might have been thinking that Ali would fall after that shot, but he didn't, which also shows Ali's toughness and courage to continue taking a beating after getting up.

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Old 08-06-2009, 05:29 PM   #75
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Default Re: David Tua v Joe Frazier.

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Its funny but a lot of guys on this thread that are so adament about Frazier have to be old timers.
Lets be honest. Tua being a legit heavyweight at 226-230 "and at his best" (thats important in this), and Joe being a touch over 200 pounds has a very large disadvantage in the power department. Do you really think that Tua is just going to stand in front of Joe and let him bob and weave or do you think Tua would move forward and try to manhandle the smaller fighter? I fully understand that Frazier had more of the intangibles, but getting them off against a much physically larger fighter thats applies pressure and has a great chin over 12 rounds is easier said then done. It took guys in the 240-250 pound range to stand up to Tua and most of them never saw the final bell. These are big strong men. Joe wasnt a slickster, nor was he a boxer mover, so again the fight is going to be at close range, with Tua ultimately forcing his will on Frazier. I dont know of any fight in history that would match up two styles like this? Two world class fighters with somewhat similar styles, but one having a large advantage in the size department). Can anyone come up with one?
Good point analysis although Tua carried more fat than Frazier at 220lbs so his size advantage isnt that massive. Frazier also has height/reach/speed/skill advantages here and good P4P strength. Stamina also is a big thing here when it comes to carrying strength into the later rounds and Frazier has an advantages here too
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