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Old 07-27-2009, 10:45 AM   #16
Rourke
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

I don't think that was offensive, it's his opinion. I think he was obviously trying to make some counter points against Nat Fleischer who wouldn't even rank him and had Jack Dempsey #1 all-time... Speed and power I don't know, but in every other aspect Ali's got Dempsey's number.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
How generous of him

And to answer your question, absolutely. Imagine if the Klitschkos or Lennox Lewis decided to point out Ali's flaws and use that to call him a joke in an interview 10 years from now- they've got every right to say it, but I've also got every right to call it a **** move to call a past HW great a joke. It's a matter of respect.

I simply prefer my trash talking fighters to stick to ragging on guys they can actually prove it against.

I agree that Ali was unfair with Dempsey. Dissing a retired fighters is never nice

However, it is worth noting that it Ali is not lying when he says that he could defeat Dempsey. Ali was a *****, but he was an honest *****

Sure the Klitschkos could trash talk former fighters, but who would take them seriously?. Ali could talk the talk, because he could walk the walk.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

On paper. the Ali v Frazier bouts were mismatches too. Ali held nearly every conceivable advantage, yet all three fights were close and Frazier won one convincingly.

Great fighters are worth more than the sum of their parts.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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How generous of him

And to answer your question, absolutely. Imagine if the Klitschkos or Lennox Lewis decided to point out Ali's flaws and use that to call him a joke in an interview 10 years from now- they've got every right to say it, but I've also got every right to call it a **** move to call a past HW great a joke. It's a matter of respect.

I simply prefer my trash talking fighters to stick to ragging on guys they can actually prove it against.
So its ok for Classic Posters to ****yse past fighters but not the HW GOAT?
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:25 PM   #20
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

Ali would stop Dempsey after outboxing him in every round. In CLAY'S era I see Dempsey being no better than a Cleveland Williams.

GREAT for his time; Boxing advanced quite a bit in those few decades IMO
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

Ali has made similar disrespectful claims about Joe Louis and other champs who he describes as crude and limited. But, in all reality I do think that Ali would beat Dempsey convincingly. He had everything from size, speed, chin, and overall ring generalship over Dempsey. His chin was well tested against the likes of Foreman, Frazier, Shavers and Liston.. His ability to deal with high pressure swarmers with a great work rate was confirmed against Joe Frazier. His stamina over 15 rounds was proven on a multitude of occasions and his comp was infinately better.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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Ali would stop Dempsey after outboxing him in every round. In CLAY'S era I see Dempsey being no better than a Cleveland Williams.

GREAT for his time; Boxing advanced quite a bit in those few decades IMO
Cleveland Williams was dead in the water, Dempsey was a live-wire and would be all over that version of Ali. To be honest, that version of Ali might be more vulnerable than later versions as I feel he was open to taking a big shot to the head. With Dempsey in the ring, this would mean a knockdown or being stunned, which could lead to a stoppage. But to get there, Dempsey takes a lot of punches coming in.

Prime Ali probably outboxes and possibly stops Dempsey. FotC Ali loses IMO. Frazier beat him, I think Dempsey does as well. Dempsey isn't quite as ferocious a pressure fighter as Frazier, but he's a superior puncher and more clinical in that regard. He also has better two-fisted power and superior handspeed, not to mention vastly superior footwork and being a much greater athlete. Could be very interesting.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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Cleveland Williams was dead in the water, Dempsey was a live-wire and would be all over that version of Ali. To be honest, that version of Ali might be more vulnerable than later versions as I feel he was open to taking a big shot to the head. With Dempsey in the ring, this would mean a knockdown or being stunned, which could lead to a stoppage. But to get there, Dempsey takes a lot of punches coming in.

Prime Ali probably outboxes and possibly stops Dempsey. FotC Ali loses IMO. Frazier beat him, I think Dempsey does as well. Dempsey isn't quite as ferocious a pressure fighter as Frazier, but he's a superior puncher and more clinical in that regard. He also has better two-fisted power and superior handspeed, not to mention vastly superior footwork and being a much greater athlete. Could be very interesting.
I'm not saying AT ALL that they have similar styles.

I will ALSO CONCEDE that Williams was way past prime by then and probably not that great during his prime.

It was a bad comparison.

But in terms of what he was and what I have seen him do I think Dempsey, ALTHOUGH A PIONEER (so don't think I'm a hater) was wel behind. His toughness and two-fisted assault would get him some places; but into a competitive fight with THE GOAT??!?!? No. Not IN MY OPINION.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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Frankly, that's the kind of thing I hated about Ali. Talking **** about guys fighting in your own era is one thing, but there's no sense and no class in calling out anybody whose been retired that long and paid their dues to the sport- champion or not. **** move if I ever saw one. It's a fight Ali should win, but if he took that kind of attitude going into a fight with Dempsey, he'd be in for a brutal revelation.

I think it was a re-action to the fact that so many people say he would lose to x and y, without actually having seen those. He was only stating his opinion which he has a right to.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

People tend to deify Ali unlike any other fighter. I am not saying he was not a great, great HW (I have him at #2) but pretty close to his prime he was quite beatable. Little Joe Frazier swarmed much like Little Jack Dempsey and landed the left hook with impunity. The very best version of Dempsey could hope to do something similar.

I know some will contend Ali was better in 65-67 but there is no way of knowing this because, with perhaps only the exception of Patterson, he fought absolute scrubs. Terrell never proved anything, Williams was absolutely shot (literally) and not that good to begin with, Foley wasn't far behind Williams in that department, London, Cooper and Midlin'burger were journeyman fighters on their best days.

I say Jack- on his best day- has a 30% chance of scoring the upset here.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:20 PM   #26
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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People tend to deify Ali unlike any other fighter. I am not saying he was not a great, great HW (I have him at #2) but pretty close to his prime he was quite beatable. Little Joe Frazier swarmed much like Little Jack Dempsey and landed the left hook with impunity. The very best version of Dempsey could hope to do something similar.

I know some will contend Ali was better in 65-67 but there is no way of knowing this because, with perhaps only the exception of Patterson, he fought absolute scrubs. Terrell never proved anything, Williams was absolutely shot (literally) and not that good to begin with, Foley wasn't far behind Williams in that department, London, Cooper and Midlin'burger were journeyman fighters on their best days.

I say Jack- on his best day- has a 30% chance of scoring the upset here.
'Little Joe Frazier' had 20-30lbs on Dempsey, fought with a different style, with a guard and systematically broke his man down by applying pressure.

Ali had weaker comp in the 60s but his 60s competition is still far better than Dempseys competition

Ali may underrated Dempsey or overstate his flaws, but he does have flaws that would get exposed, however he looks worse against Willard than at his absolute best
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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'Little Joe Frazier' had 20-30lbs on Dempsey, fought with a different style, with a guard and systematically broke his man down by applying pressure.

Ali had weaker comp in the 60s but his 60s competition is still far better than Dempseys competition

Ali may underrated Dempsey or overstate his flaws, but he does have flaws that would get exposed, however he looks worse against Willard than at his absolute best
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:29 PM   #28
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
How generous of him

And to answer your question, absolutely. Imagine if the Klitschkos or Lennox Lewis decided to point out Ali's flaws and use that to call him a joke in an interview 10 years from now- they've got every right to say it, but I've also got every right to call it a **** move to call a past HW great a joke. It's a matter of respect.

I simply prefer my trash talking fighters to stick to ragging on guys they can actually prove it against.
I agree completely.

Yet I do appreciate guys upsetting the applecart from time to time. The rule is that all past champs are unbeatable compared to a current champ. Gets tiresome.

Ali was the exception that proved the rule, however.
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Old 07-27-2009, 04:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

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Hmmm... I wonder if he thought Frazier was a joke... Not totally ****ogous fighters but not far off either.
On the campus tour in 1970 Ali thought Frazier was a joke, but when he was out on his feet in the 11th round, and his butt was on the canvas in the 15th round in the FOTC...he found the joke was on himself.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:23 PM   #30
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali " Jack Dempsey Is A Joke " ?

The way Gene Tunney handled Dempsey makes me believe Ali would do so as well.
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