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Old 09-10-2007, 02:16 AM   #16
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Marco Antonio Barrera's one handed display against Jaurez in the rematch was an awesome display of "pure boxing". He more or less stuck to the left jab for the entire fight.

Jones' 12 round decision against Ruiz as well. Jones had a reputation for using his jab exclusively as a range finder, but against Ruiz he had the jab pumping like a piston with authority.
When Jones lost his athletic gifts he found himself outboxed a few times, even stopped on more than one occassion, because as Hopkins stated, he never learnt the fundamentals. In light of this, I don't see how you can praise his "pure boxing"

BTW - Gene Tunney was the first that came to mind.
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:46 AM   #17
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

Ask good questions, and it's possible to get good answers. How do we define "pure" boxing? Is it elusive footwork combined with a great jab? Joey Archer and Willie Pastrano come to mind then. It it the ability to neutralize superior height and reach with skill, manueverability and quickness? Pep, Canto and Vilomar Fernandez come to mind.

Should we use correct punching technique as a criteria? Arguello and Louis are hard to argue against on that score (although the Bomber could hang himself out of balance when he extended his jab).

How would a peak Hearns have done against an opponent of superior height and reach? We'll never know, but his post prime mastery of Virgil Hill is a terrific mention, and Tommy demonstrated enormous ring intelligence, as SRL pointed out immediately after their first bout. He was also brilliant against Benitez.

Benny Leonard was not simply phenomenally gifted and smart, but he self evolved tremendous punching power through diligent and concentrated effort, mastering all the techniques employable from the orthodox position. Dominated great veteran champion welterweight Jack Britton, getting himself seemingly disqualified on purpose, after proving himself the Boxing Marvel's master. Gans handled Barbados Joe Walcott, and was identified as the GOAT by Sam Langford.

Is ring generalship a major factor to consider here? Who surpasses Loughran in that area?

From the southpaw stance, Camacho and Whitaker were outstanding. When Butterfly Crawley outboxed the much taller Rockin' Robin Blake in Blake's hometown, I thought he was the most skilled active boxer in the world.

In the latter stages of his rematch with Archer, Emile Griffith unexpectedly shifted the position of his left hand from a high defensive location to a low hanging one, messing Joey up, and winning a couple of crucial rounds in the process.

At his peak, Wilfredo Gomez was considered to have no known weaknesses. He showed the rare ability to uppercut effectively with both hands against Carlos Mendoza, effortlessly avoided punches with well timed body movements, was a murderous body puncher, could also pick off bodyshots extremely well, and overcame the vastly superior speed of former amateur conqueror Derrick Holmes in a title defense rematch on NBC's Friday Night Fights.

Jimmy Young can't be overlooked for what he did to Foreman and Lyle. Neither should Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, when he was in shape, and at his rare best.

This is a question which might be best broken into individual components, like best movement, most efficacious jab (both asked earlier in separate threads), and so forth.
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:59 AM   #18
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Its been a while since I started a thread, so thought I'd throw one up for a change.

Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?.

Mind now, the greatest boxer. Not all round "pound for pound" best ever to lace'em up.

Example: Greats like Armstrong and Duran would probably be discounted as they were not known for their outstanding boxing ability as it wasn't their strength, although Duran could box effectively when needed.
Loughran
Pep
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Sizzle
When Jones lost his athletic gifts he found himself outboxed a few times, even stopped on more than one occassion, because as Hopkins stated, he never learnt the fundamentals. In light of this, I don't see how you can praise his "pure boxing"

BTW - Gene Tunney was the first that came to mind.
Didn't you read my post?. I happened to mention Jones in one particular fight, his contest against Ruiz. A fight in which he pumped the jab all night, and boxed as well as he ever done. His performance throughout that fight is worthy of praise when it comes to "pure boxing.

Before my last post I said who I thought were the "greatest pure boxers of all time", and Jones wasn't on the list.
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:46 AM   #20
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Didn't you read my post?. I happened to mention Jones in one particular fight, his contest against Ruiz. A fight in which he pumped the jab all night, and boxed as well as he ever done. His performance throughout that fight is worthy of praise when it comes to "pure boxing.

Before my last post I said who I thought were the "greatest pure boxers of all time", and Jones wasn't on the list.
Do you think Roy would've been even better if he'd boxed in an "orthodox" manner?

I can't help but think with his speed and reflexes that Roy fighting behind the jab and with a tight defence with his left hand up might never have lost.Imagine a more athletically gifted Floyd Mayweather and you'll see what I think Jones may have been.

That said he wouldn't have been as good to watch and possibly it was his unorthodoxy that made him as effective as he was.

Still it's interesting to speculate.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
Ask good questions, and it's possible to get good answers. How do we define "pure" boxing? Is it elusive footwork combined with a great jab? Joey Archer and Willie Pastrano come to mind then. It it the ability to neutralize superior height and reach with skill, manueverability and quickness? Pep, Canto and Vilomar Fernandez come to mind.

Should we use correct punching technique as a criteria? Arguello and Louis are hard to argue against on that score (although the Bomber could hang himself out of balance when he extended his jab).

How would a peak Hearns have done against an opponent of superior height and reach? We'll never know, but his post prime mastery of Virgil Hill is a terrific mention, and Tommy demonstrated enormous ring intelligence, as SRL pointed out immediately after their first bout. He was also brilliant against Benitez.

Benny Leonard was not simply phenomenally gifted and smart, but he self evolved tremendous punching power through diligent and concentrated effort, mastering all the techniques employable from the orthodox position. Dominated great veteran champion welterweight Jack Britton, getting himself seemingly disqualified on purpose, after proving himself the Boxing Marvel's master. Gans handled Barbados Joe Walcott, and was identified as the GOAT by Sam Langford.

Is ring generalship a major factor to consider here? Who surpasses Loughran in that area?

From the southpaw stance, Camacho and Whitaker were outstanding. When Butterfly Crawley outboxed the much taller Rockin' Robin Blake in Blake's hometown, I thought he was the most skilled active boxer in the world.

In the latter stages of his rematch with Archer, Emile Griffith unexpectedly shifted the position of his left hand from a high defensive location to a low hanging one, messing Joey up, and winning a couple of crucial rounds in the process.

At his peak, Wilfredo Gomez was considered to have no known weaknesses. He showed the rare ability to uppercut effectively with both hands against Carlos Mendoza, effortlessly avoided punches with well timed body movements, was a murderous body puncher, could also pick off bodyshots extremely well, and overcame the vastly superior speed of former amateur conqueror Derrick Holmes in a title defense rematch on NBC's Friday Night Fights.

Jimmy Young can't be overlooked for what he did to Foreman and Lyle. Neither should Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, when he was in shape, and at his rare best.

This is a question which might be best broken into individual components, like best movement, most efficacious jab (both asked earlier in separate threads), and so forth.
Now there's a fine post, and some damn good reading.
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:11 AM   #22
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Now there's a fine post, and some damn good reading.
Thanks mate. I threw it together in the middle of the night, during a fit of insomnia. (Somewhat relieved that my altered state of consciousness didn't result in a totally botched submission.)
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:35 AM   #23
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Now there's a fine post, and some damn good reading.
I'll second that.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:26 AM   #24
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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For pure boxing I would pick Tonny Loughran. He wasn't a puncher but you only have to look at his record to understand that something made him pretty special, he has wins over some proper greats, and as a light-heavy, some proper greats that were bigger than him...

I'd say that that something sprang from stance, timing, technique. Boxing, basically.
I would have to agree with that. He only had a left hand because his right broke easy. So to avoid that happening to his left hand, he forsook any hard punching and concentrated primarily on pure boxing. I don't think anyone can name a superior boxer to Tommy, maybe an equal, but no better.
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

When I first saw Hagler/Duran, it seemed to me that Duran boxed very skillfully without the jab being a key component of his approach. So often, the matter of skillful boxing is simply diluted to nothing more than having a great jab. Years ago, I read about a professor of poetry who forbade her students to use the word "love" in their compositions. In music, John Fogarty generated a tremendous career writing and record songs that had nothing to do with male/female relationships. To me, that's creative.

Is it possible to box stylishly without a prominent jab? (Rather than slug and brawl.) What such examples might there be among championship caliber performers?

Dwight Qawi had such an outstanding counterjab that he actually deconstructed Mike Rossman, who was considered to have the best jab in the LHW division at the time. It seemed to me, that outboxing Qawi would require taking his counterjab out of the equation. Lateral movement, leading with hooks and crosses, anything but giving him an opportunity to counter a jab with one of his own. Feinting was pretty much a lost art by Qawi's time, but I figured anybody who could feint a jab convincingly, to lure him into launching his first, might really disturb Dwight's comfort zone, and create opportunities nobody had been able to avail themselves of. Ike was a stylistic nightmare at his best.

Jack Blackburn had so deeply ingrained into Joe Louis the importance of beginning his combinations with a jab, that he couldn't break the pattern against Schmeling, to thwart Max's right hand counter.

Palomino was brilliantly dissected by Duran, who constantly varied his combinations in unpredictable ways. Duran was a truly fluid and natural fighter, not an overly schooled and drilled automaton with forseeable responses. While his skills could be learned, how could they ever be taught, except through immersion and osmosis?
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:20 PM   #26
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Ask good questions, and it's possible to get good answers. How do we define "pure" boxing? Is it elusive footwork combined with a great jab? Joey Archer and Willie Pastrano come to mind then. It it the ability to neutralize superior height and reach with skill, manueverability and quickness? Pep, Canto and Vilomar Fernandez come to mind.

Should we use correct punching technique as a criteria? Arguello and Louis are hard to argue against on that score (although the Bomber could hang himself out of balance when he extended his jab).

How would a peak Hearns have done against an opponent of superior height and reach? We'll never know, but his post prime mastery of Virgil Hill is a terrific mention, and Tommy demonstrated enormous ring intelligence, as SRL pointed out immediately after their first bout. He was also brilliant against Benitez.
Dudenum

Benny Leonard was not simply phenomenally gifted and smart, but he self evolved tremendous punching power through diligent and concentrated effort, mastering all the techniques employable from the orthodox position. Dominated great veteran champion welterweight Jack Britton, getting himself seemingly disqualified on purpose, after proving himself the Boxing Marvel's master. Gans handled Barbados Joe Walcott, and was identified as the GOAT by Sam Langford.

Is ring generalship a major factor to consider here? Who surpasses Loughran in that area?

From the southpaw stance, Camacho and Whitaker were outstanding. When Butterfly Crawley outboxed the much taller Rockin' Robin Blake in Blake's hometown, I thought he was the most skilled active boxer in the world.

In the latter stages of his rematch with Archer, Emile Griffith unexpectedly shifted the position of his left hand from a high defensive location to a low hanging one, messing Joey up, and winning a couple of crucial rounds in the process.

At his peak, Wilfredo Gomez was considered to have no known weaknesses. He showed the rare ability to uppercut effectively with both hands against Carlos Mendoza, effortlessly avoided punches with well timed body movements, was a murderous body puncher, could also pick off bodyshots extremely well, and overcame the vastly superior speed of former amateur conqueror Derrick Holmes in a title defense rematch on NBC's Friday Night Fights.

Jimmy Young can't be overlooked for what he did to Foreman and Lyle. Neither should Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, when he was in shape, and at his rare best.

This is a question which might be best broken into individual components, like best movement, most efficacious jab (both asked earlier in separate threads), and so forth.
Duodenum post has persuaded me to elaborate a bit on my previous post where I deem Tommy Loughran as the best example of a "pue boxer". I honestly don't think anyone atually exceeds Tommy as a pure boxer, but there are many criteria to consider as noted in the quote above. Harold Johnson is as impressive a technician and purist exponent of pure boxing brilliance as anyone, as well are many of the other examples, but one I'd like to make note of is Eddie Mustafa Muhammad. He gets lost in the shuffle alot and his name only seems to come up in refence to his loss to Spinks, or maybe in his guise as a trainer, however, I'd like to point to his brilliant title winning performance against Marvin Johnson. Now Johnson was no joke as a fighter, and he had just ressurected his career by actually ko'ing Victor Galindez in impressive fashion, and in a way no one else had ever done before, so Eddie's feat of winning the title from Marvin was noteworthy. But it was the way he did it. I saw that fight televised back in the good old days on free tv, and I was fascinated by the masterclass display of boxing as much as the power punching Mustafa put on display. It's one of the most artistically, aesthetically pleasing pure boxing performances I've ever seen. Eddie seemed to be pulling his punches somewhat so as to favor precision and accuracy, but the cunning, brilliant maneuvering of Johnson around the ring, and subtle tactics he used to position and set up Johnson was a thing to behold. I'd love to see it again, and maybe some kind soul will put it on YouTube or something.
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:29 PM   #27
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

The asskicking Conteh gave yaqui Lopez with just his jab was another great technical performance from that timeperiod.
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

I'll say Muhammad Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi1985


Typical response from a hyperbolical Ali nuthugger. Little kiddies like you nothing know about boxing. Stop with your childish arguments and responses C II Gay!
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:34 PM   #29
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I didnīt write it so, Clay II. I didnīt make this grammar mistake, when you quote something, do it correct, and when itīs to difficult for you, than let it...
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:39 PM   #30
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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I didnīt write it so, Clay II. I didnīt make this grammar mistake, when you quote something, do it correct, and when itīs to difficult for you, than let it...
I did that to beat you to the punch, 'cause I know you would write the exact same thing.
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