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Old 09-10-2007, 02:26 PM   #61
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by pryorgatti
Very rich thread with good choices but who would be THE consensus greatest pure boxer then?
Chuck Wepner.
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Old 09-10-2007, 02:28 PM   #62
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

OK seriously?
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Old 09-10-2007, 02:42 PM   #63
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Ali beat the 70's bunch with his Chin, Will, Heart, and stinging punchings. He was not ducking and weaving vs Fraizer or Foreman. He was mostly taking hits, and slugging it out. Good or great boxers dont do that.
Ali's prime, 1963-1967. He wasn't slugging it out and relying on his heart and courage then, as he never needed those attributes. Because he was one of the "greatest pure boxers" ever while in his prime.

During the 70's, I'll side with you. Most of his greatest performances were all about his toughness and courage, as his boxing ability had clearly declined. He became more stationary, never had the same reflexes, and the swift movements were not there anymore. Well they were there, but they had evaporated. The fundementals he lacked caught up with him. Those fundementals were, his hands down style, and lack of inside skills.
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Old 09-10-2007, 02:47 PM   #64
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Ali's prime, 1963-1967. He wasn't slugging it out and relying on his heart and courage then, as he never needed those attributes. Because he was one of the "greatest pure boxers" ever while in his prime.

During the 70's, I'll side with you. Most of his greatest performances were all about his toughness and courage, as his boxing ability had clearly declined. He became more stationary, never had the same reflexes, and swift movements were not there anymore. The fundementals he lacked caught up with him.
i agree but in amongst it all there was still some sublime skills.against foreman when backed onto the ropes he would occasionally open up with lightning quick combo's which would befuddle and actually hurt big george.
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Old 09-10-2007, 02:59 PM   #65
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by ron u.k.
i agree but in amongst it all there was still some sublime skills.against foreman when backed onto the ropes he would occasionally open up with lightning quick combo's which would befuddle and actually hurt big george.
Agreed. Probably the Spinks rematch proved what a good boxer he could be while years past his prime. He managed to get himself mentally in the zone, and sucked everything out of his body for one last great boxing show.

His jab was non-existent against Foreman, only during short spells did he use it. Mainly because Foreman smuthered the distance, and Ali never had the legs to keeping moving and create distance to throw the jab on a regular basis. Ali often leaned back against the ropes, sagging back, which gave him room for lightning lead right hands. Those short clubbing punches inside which Foreman was throwing, Ali never felt comfortable with those punches. He just never had them in reserve for fighting inside.
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:04 PM   #66
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
A great pure boxer is someone like Whitaker, who had a great defense, great footwork, movements, a good guard, good combos, etc., things Ali and RJJ for example had not...
That's right, great example.
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:10 PM   #67
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
A great pure boxer is someone like Ali, who had a great defense, great footwork, movements, good combos, etc.,...
I agree.


I'm putting words in your mouth.


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Old 09-10-2007, 03:39 PM   #68
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
Anyway, Ali had p4p IMO the fastest hands and feet. He moved his body in very tricky ways to avoid punches and make it harder for an opponent to set up punches to begin with. His jab was capable of winning fights by itself. His right was very good and straight set up off the jab. He used every possible variety of combos to offset his opponent. He had enought stamina (in his prime) to move for 15 rounds to keep away from his opponent, and he was very smart and knew every trick in the book about tying his man up, getting out of corners, riding punches that land, etc.
Ali was for me the greatest heavyweight of all time ,but not the greatestr boxer he had god given reflexes ,sense of distance ,speed and anticipation ,but lacked some of the basics as did Jones Jnr ,when alis speed fell off a step he compensated with heart and unsuspected durability,but there are many better pure boxers than him.
FOR EXAMPLE
Tommy Loughran
Willie Pep
Billy Conn
Harold Johnson
Miguel Canto
What Ali had over them was phenomenal speed of foot and hand,he got away with basic errors like pulling back from punches instead of slipping them ,because he had such incredible reflexes,as those eroded he adapted his style to include clinching ,holding and even Moores old cross arm defence,this isnt just my laymans opinion it was also Eddie Futches.
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:40 PM   #69
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
I agree.


I'm putting words in your mouth.



Great joke!
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:41 PM   #70
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by red cobra
That's right, great example.

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Old 09-10-2007, 03:45 PM   #71
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Great joke!

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Old 09-10-2007, 03:47 PM   #72
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Robbi
Ali's prime, 1963-1967. He wasn't slugging it out and relying on his heart and courage then, as he never needed those attributes. Because he was one of the "greatest pure boxers" ever while in his prime.

During the 70's, I'll side with you. Most of his greatest performances were all about his toughness and courage, as his boxing ability had clearly declined. He became more stationary, never had the same reflexes, and the swift movements were not there anymore. The fundementals he lacked caught up with him. Those fundementals were, his hands down style, and lack of inside skills.
This raises an interesting question though. How many boxers were so skilled that their skill was enough to sustain them when the advantages of youth abandoned them?

If absolutely forced to pick a single greatest pure boxer of all time, I would probably select the pre plane crash edition of Willie Pep who secured the undisputed World Featherweight Championship by fracturing Sal Bartolo's jaw to post his 100th win. His amateur record was 62-3, meaning he had a combined total competitive boxing record of 162-4-1 at age 24, and would continue boxing for another 20 years.

When he finally stopped competing in 1966, he had a combined pro-am record of 291-14-1, and had boxed since 1937. He didn't enjoy the statural advantages frequently possessed by Robinson, and he had superior mobility to Louis. He wasn't dependent on counterpunching to the extent Harold Johnson sometimes was, but could make things happen on his own initiative. He could be cut, yet he sustained only one loss due to one, when ahead on points, he retired between rounds of the final fight with Saddler, claiming that the pain from a deep gash he'd sustained was too intense for him to continue. A boxer of lesser skill would have sustained much more than one loss on cuts in 306 total matches with the skin he had. (Even Robinson was in danger of getting stopped on a cut in the Turpin rematch.)

Ali did impress me most with his skills in the Spinks rematch. To be 37 years old, and dominate a youthful athletic opponent like Leon 11-4 in rounds is a pretty solid achievement.
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:54 PM   #73
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Ok, so Jones was all reflexes and speed. What your saying is give Michael Vick, Allen Iverson, or someone like that a year's worth of training and they'll be ATG's. That's what you're saying. You have NO CLUE what you're talking about. By pure boxer he likely meant who was the hardest to outbox, and they definitely qualify.

Anyways, where does your problem with Ali lay? Even as he got older and lost the physical gifts, he got some of his biggest wins and did his smartest boxing. Your post sucked.

But he´s right, Ali and RJJ weren´t good examples for great pure boxers. Good examples would be Whitaker, Loughran, Rosenbloom, etc...
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Old 09-10-2007, 04:00 PM   #74
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
He didn't ask for best technical boxers, he asked for the people who were the best boxers, the hardest to outbox, etc, and Roy and Ali fall under that category for sure, especially Ali, being as he carried beyond his physical peak.

When someone asks for the best pure boxer, for me it is a fighter who has the best technique, and that contains things like combination punching, jab, right hand, footwork, guard, head movements, timing of the punches, etc., Ali and RJJ lived primal because of their speed, if they wouldn´t have this god-given talent, they wouldn´t have been twice the fighters they were...
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Old 09-10-2007, 04:05 PM   #75
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Default Re: Who was the greatest pure boxer of all time?

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Ali was for me the greatest heavyweight of all time ,but not the greatestr boxer he had god given reflexes ,sense of distance ,speed and anticipation ,but lacked some of the basics as did Jones Jnr ,when alis speed fell off a step he compensated with heart and unsuspected durability,but there are many better pure boxers than him
Should Ali's lack of basics work against him?. I dont think so. And god given reflexes and speed enhances the arguement of defining a great boxer from a very good one. I have stated my views on the differences between Ali and Jones in previous posts, so feel free to have a read instead of me going over all ground. When Ali's speed and co-ordination fell apart, he did show great heart and durability to come through fights where those situations arose when he had no option but to take leather.

Last edited by Robbi; 09-10-2007 at 05:26 PM.
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