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Old 07-29-2009, 03:52 PM   #1
Russell
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Default Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

What's the highest HW ranking that can be justified for Joe Frazier?

Several posters here feel he's 2-1 against Ali, whom most consider the number on heavyweight of all time. It's not a consenus that he beat Ali the second time of course, but opinion is split and plenty of people in the game feel he won as well.

Factor in everything else he accomplished in his career, of course. Could he be a top 3-4 heavyweight?
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
What's the highest HW ranking that can be justified for Joe Frazier?

Several posters here feel he's 2-1 against Ali, whom most consider the number on heavyweight of all time. It's not a consenus that he beat Ali the second time of course, but opinion is split and plenty of people in the game feel he won as well.

Factor in everything else he accomplished in his career, of course. Could he be a top 3-4 heavyweight?
Around number 10.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:06 PM   #3
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

You COULD justify a very high status. H2H he probably got the better of Ali - he had one clear victory, one dubious loss, and one unlucky loss. His only other real loss was to a guy who was a stylistic nightmare for him, and one of the other ATG HWs. Apart from that, he was undefeated and beat off some of the best guys in the division at the time.

Stylstically, he's a real difficult guy to handle for the majority of HWs out there. So, based on H2H rankings, you could put him as high as 5th imo.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

Kingston, Jamaica, and the way it went down will always be held against him.

Personally, and bear with me as this may seem a little weird, but the way he went out on his shield against Foreman was a testament to what a warrior Frazier was. Foreman hit him with some truly concussive shots and Joe kept getting up and getting up. I know others (especially the ones who hate Joe for knocking Ali on his ass in the FOTC and clearly winning the fight when both men were near peak, despite was the Ali apologists say) found it funny to see Joe bounced around, but he went out like a lion and still on his feet. To me, that was greatness.

For his style, he was a clean fighter (Mercante verified this) and that counts something for me.

I think Frazier is properly put well inside the top 10. As to where in the top 10, well everyone has their criteria and opinion.

Anywhere from 4 to 6 would seem justifiable to me.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

How can you even justify a 2-1 record against Ali. Some people are just being ridiculous here.

I think 3-4 is a bit steep.

That being said I rank Frazier #5. Yet everyone here thinks I hate him here. I guess it's because he's always pegged against people I feel beat him or might have been better or able to beat him.

What hurts Frazier is his prime is supposedly limited. He goes downhill fast and really fast according to some. Maybe FOTC took loads from him as a fighter. He still has some good wins against other fighters while trying to retrace Ali/Foreman and the title. He didn't beat some of the other elites on the downturn of his career like Norton, Shavers, or Lyle. You can also argue he intentionally avoided an old Liston. A lot of them came on the up and up while he was fading out of the picture. Norton is the biggest exclusion. He can never rank above Ali for Ali has a far greater resume and far longer dominance while being the 3 time Heavyweight champion. Also on the down turn Joe has some close fights. Didn't get a chance to defend the title much. He seem to live in the glamor of things as a champion.

What helps Frazier in ranking? Beating the GOAT even at a time where he isn't at his best though. However, very importantly, being the first to beat him. Frazier winning the Olympic heavyweight gold medal. Frazier competing in the toughest era for boxing while winning the title. His performances and victories over Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, and Foster. His performances and valiant in losses against Ali (Particularly Thrilla).

With all that being said I think he's a top 10 HW. I guess it depends on your criteria. Frazier being the first to beat Ali is big in my book.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

you could put him at 3 easily!
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

Joe Frazier is an easy guy to love but a hard guy to like. Meaning, how can anyone not be moved by such a warrior spirit? Probably my biggest gripe with Joe is that he knew only one speed, one style, not much of a thinking fighter, but that is just the flip side of what I love so much about the man. I believe the following HW's are safely ranked above Joe in simple effectiveness, that is whose hand is raised at the end of the fight...

Ali, Marciano, Louis, Tyson...

Would have loved to see Joe in there with Ivander, the only HW that comes to mind that nears Joe's fighting spirit.

Joe Frazier as most would agree, would have been in contention for the title in any era of boxing.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

Nope, in my opinion

As much as I am a Joe fan, I think he had some limitations and was too unidimensional as to grant him a Top4 HW place. However, as it has been already mentioned, he is Top10 HW, no discussion on that.

The amazing thing with Joe is that he accomplished so much with the, relatively, limited tools he had, combined with his huge spirit and courage.

In a H2H analysis, yep, you can make a case for him, because after all he defeated Ali 1 of 3 times (regardless controversies).

But in that case, what do we do with Kenny Norton, who defeated Ali at least 2 of 3 times? (including the stolen fight)
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by PbP Bacon View Post
Nope, in my opinion

As much as I am a Joe fan, I think he had some limitations and was too unidimensional as to grant him a Top4 HW place. However, he is Top10 HW, no discussion on that.

The amazing thing with Joe is that he accomplished so much with the, relatively, limited tools he had, combined with his huge courage.

In a H2H analysis, yep, you can make a case for him, because after all he defeated Ali at least 1 of 3 times.

But in that case, what do we do with Kenny Norton, who defeated Ali at least 2 of 3 times?
What's this? Someone actually transcending a bias?

Don't disagree with anything you said. But just curious, as a self-proclaimed Frazier guy, who do you put in there above Joe,
from 5 to 9?
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Chinxkid View Post
What's this? Someone actually transcending a bias?

Don't disagree with anything you said. But just curious, as a self-proclaimed Frazier guy, who do you put in there above Joe,
from 5 to 9?
Well, this is my Top 10 List from the HW poll:

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Holmes
4 Holyfield
5 Marciano
6 Lewis
7 Dempsey
8 Foreman
9 Liston
10 Frazier
11 Tyson

As you can see, the 10th place was a tough call. It was kind of difficult to justify to take Tyson out of the Top 10.

But at the end I decided to keep Frazier in; spirit and courage have to count for something, sometimes, and Frazier had plenty of that
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by itrymariti View Post
You COULD justify a very high status. H2H he probably got the better of Ali - he had one clear victory, one dubious loss, and one unlucky loss.
When did the myth begin that the second fight was anywhere close to being dubious?

How was it unlucky that he was beaten into a pulp in the closing rounds of their thriller, and was forced to bow out by his trainer?

What the hell is going on here?
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:33 PM   #12
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PbP Bacon View Post
Well, this is my Top 10 List from the HW poll:

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Holmes
4 Holyfield
5 Marciano
6 Lewis
7 Dempsey
8 Foreman
9 Liston
10 Frazier
11 Tyson

As you can see, the 10th place was a tough call. It was kind of difficult to justify to take Tyson out of the Top 10.

But at the end I decided to keep Frazier in; spirit and courage have to count for something, sometimes, and Frazier had plenty of that
How is Holyfield over Marciano? In fact, he's way too high. The highest I've ever seen. Dempsey is way too high. Frazier is too low.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:38 PM   #13
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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How is Holyfield over Marciano? In fact, he's way too high. The highest I've ever seen. Dempsey is way too high. Frazier is too low.
Holyfield lost 2-1 against Bowe, had a lot of trouble with contenders and journey man (Cooper, Stewart), and was beaten by Moorer. This all happened relatively close to his prime. He's way to high on that list.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Holyfield lost 2-1 against Bowe, had a lot of trouble with contenders and journey man (Cooper, Stewart), and was beaten by Moorer. This all happened relatively close to his prime. He's way to high on that list.
Agreed. If you stick him in the top 10, it has to be the backend of it.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by OBCboxer View Post
How is Holyfield over Marciano? In fact, he's way too high. The highest I've ever seen. Dempsey is way too high. Frazier is too low.

I like Holy

..and his accomplishments speaks volumes. How many guys are out there who are 4 times HW champions?. Sure he screwed things a lot, but...

Perhaps, H2H it could be made a case that Holy is way too high and Marciano should be above him. But, I feel in peace with my list

Frazier is Top 10. Sure, he could move 1 or 2 places up, but not more than that
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