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Old 07-29-2009, 06:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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I like Holy

..and his accomplishments speaks volumes. How many guys are out there who are 4 times HW champions?

Perhaps, H2H it could be made a case that Holy is way too high and Marciano should be above him. But, I feel in peace with my list

Frazier is Top 10. Sure, he could move 1 or 2 places up, but not more than that
Accomplishments don't tell the whole story.

Holyfield never established dominance at Heavyweight, ever. He was always troubled by fighters who he should have dealt with easily, and then along came Bowe whom, prime for prime, beat him conclusively. Lennox would dominate him, Moorer would defeat him, and he's arguably ruining his legacy by continuing on in his 40s and losing to fighters who he'd have walked over in 92.

Back end of a top 10 is reasonable, but at number 4...just unbelievable if you ask me. Each to his own, I guess.

P.S He was a 4 time Heavyweight champion due to his inconsistency.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:49 PM   #17
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

Here's mine:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Holmes
5. Johnson
6. Frazier
7. Liston
8. Lewis
9. Foreman
10.Holyfield
11.Tyson
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:49 PM   #18
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Accomplishments don't tell the whole story.

Holyfield never established dominance at Heavyweight, ever. He was always troubled by fighters who he should have dealt with easily, and then along came Bowe whom, prime for prime, beat him conclusively. Lennox would dominate him, Moorer would defeat him, and he's arguably ruining his legacy by continuing on in his 40s and losing to fighters who he'd have walked over in 92.

Back end of a top 10 is reasonable, but at number 4...just unbelievable if you ask me. Each to his own, I guess.

P.S He was a 4 time Heavyweight champion due to his inconsistency.

I give you that: for keeping fighting Holy is damaging his legacy in a really dumb way. My impression is that had he retired years ago, people would judge him more positively.

But, Holy is Holy, you just have to love a guy who showed a younger, bigger-than-life Tyson, who was boss
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by PbP Bacon View Post
I like Holy

..and his accomplishments speaks volumes. How many guys are out there who are 4 times HW champions?. Sure he screwed things a lot, but...

Perhaps, H2H it could be made a case that Holy is way too high and Marciano should be above him. But, I feel in peace with my list

Frazier is Top 10. Sure, he could move 1 or 2 places up, but not more than that
He lost in his prime was roubled by a journeyman Cooper. He never dominated the division. Like SelfKill said, he's very inconsistent at the top.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by PbP Bacon View Post
I give you that: for keeping fighting Holy is damaging his legacy in a really dumb way. My impression is that had he retired years ago, people would judge him more positively.

But, Holy is Holy, you just have to love a guy who showed a younger, bigger-than-life Tyson, who was boss
I love Holyfield, mate. His win over Tyson was spectacular, and so was his performance in the rematch with Bowe. There was no shame in losing to a '92 Rid**** Bowe, who was an extraordinarily talented fighter in my book, one who would have gave Lennox all he could handle. As you say, 4-time Heavyweight champion with a good resume.

Top 4 is just overdoing it though. Let's hope he retires tomorrow.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:06 PM   #21
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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when did the myth begin that the second fight was anywhere close to being dubious?

how was it unlucky that he was beaten into a pulp in the closing rounds of their thriller, and was forced to bow out by his trainer?

What the hell is going on here?
thank you!
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

Some nice highlights here of Joe; Chuvalo, Mathis, Ellis, FOTC.

Pressure, pressure, pressure!!

Followed by Larry Merchant's critiquing of Frazier. Worth a look.

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Old 07-29-2009, 07:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by OBCboxer View Post
Here's mine:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Holmes
5. Johnson
6. Frazier
7. Liston
8. Lewis
9. Foreman
10.Holyfield
11.Tyson

I have Frazier higher than you!

That's a nice list. Like most list I feel Foreman gets a bit underrated around here. Johnson is a bit too high for my liking as well. I have trouble understanding Liston above Foreman. As dominant as he was and as good of a resume he had. Still, Foreman's top names beat his and Foreman recaptured the title at 45 which is an incredible achievement in and of itself. It kills the previous record of 37 years old, and it's done from a fighter that took over a 10 year layoff.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:14 PM   #24
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Chinxkid View Post
Some nice highlights here of Joe; Chuvalo, Mathis, Ellis, FOTC.

Pressure, pressure, pressure!!

Followed by Larry Merchant's critiquing of Frazier. Worth a look.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Thankyou so much for uploading this. Seeing Larry that young and commenting on these guys is gold. That's how I'll spend my evening, watching the entire thing. I'm one of the few who's a big fan of Larry and his opinions.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:16 PM   #25
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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I have Frazier higher than you!

That's a nice list. Like most list I feel Foreman gets a bit underrated around here. Johnson is a bit too high for my liking as well. I have trouble understanding Liston above Foreman. As dominant as he was and as good of a resume he had. Still, Foreman's top names beat his and Foreman recaptured the title at 45 which is an incredible achievement in and of itself. It kills the previous record of 37 years old, and it's done from a fighter that took over a 10 year layoff.
Agree, Big George doesn't get enough respect around here. I'm guilty of it myself, why I'm not sure, 'cause i do like him, think he hit as hard as any heavy, and was most impressed with what he did in later years. It took him a long time to become a thinking fighter.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:17 PM   #26
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Thankyou so much for uploading this. Seeing Larry that young and commenting on these guys is gold. That's how I'll spend my evening, watching the entire thing. I'm one of the few who's a big fan of Larry and his opinions.
Your welcome, brother.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Chinxkid View Post
Agree, Big George doesn't get enough respect around here. I'm guilty of it myself, why I'm not sure, 'cause i do like him, think he hit as hard as any heavy, and was most impressed with what he did in later years. It took him a long time to become a thinking fighter.
Yep. He was a belt holder in two of the most dominant eras of HW boxing. Not much else more you really have to say
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Chinxkid View Post
Agree, Big George doesn't get enough respect around here. I'm guilty of it myself, why I'm not sure, 'cause i do like him, think he hit as hard as any heavy, and was most impressed with what he did in later years. It took him a long time to become a thinking fighter.
It's complicated with Foreman, because although the accomplishment of winning the title against Moorer was huge and still is, his prime was very short, and after being beaten decisively by Ali, he followed that up with more losses. He was never consistent, not in his first outing at Heavyweight or his last. There isn't much to speak about when talking skillset either.

But when you knockout Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, and regain the title at 45 years of age, he has to be on the list somewhere.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:23 PM   #29
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by OBCboxer View Post
He lost in his prime was roubled by a journeyman Cooper. He never dominated the division. Like SelfKill said, he's very inconsistent at the top.
He lost in his prime? Many ATG heavyweight champs have. And he lost to a guy who was arguably a top 5 monster HW fighter H2H. In his absolute peak, which granted is quite a limited peak.

I can see how Holyfield might be underrated. He is the 4 time heavyweight champion. Arguably 5 time. He beat Tyson twice, Moore, Bowe, Foreman, and has probably the best resume in HW boxing. He came into the scene previously a cruiserweight in the toughest era in boxing and resilently regained the title 4 times. How didn't dominate the era, but nobody really did. Everyone glimmered in it but it's Holyfield that captured the belt and has the best resume of that decade. I have Tyson over him, but for what's it is worth you can make a great case for him to be ahead of him. But I have Holy above Lewis.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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I have Frazier higher than you!

That's a nice list. Like most list I feel Foreman gets a bit underrated around here. Johnson is a bit too high for my liking as well. I have trouble understanding Liston above Foreman. As dominant as he was and as good of a resume he had. Still, Foreman's top names beat his and Foreman recaptured the title at 45 which is an incredible achievement in and of itself. It kills the previous record of 37 years old, and it's done from a fighter that took over a 10 year layoff.
Hehe you do. . My list changes from time to time and sometimes I flip Foreman over Liston. I rate Johnson that high because I feel his resume is better than Frazier's.
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