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Old 07-29-2009, 06:25 PM   #31
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
It's complicated with Foreman, because although the accomplishment of winning the title against Moorer was huge and still is, his prime was very short, and after being beaten decisively by Ali, he followed that up with more losses. He was never consistent, not in his first outing at Heavyweight or his last. There isn't much to speak about when talking skillset either.

But when you knockout Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, and regain the title at 45 years of age, he has to be on the list somewhere.
But post-Ali Foreman was mentally all wrong and fought in the wrong gameplan for that time for him. And if you're going to criticize fighters for limited primes you can do that for a lot of other fighters (Frazier, Dempsey, etc).
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:28 PM   #32
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Hehe you do. . My list changes from time to time and sometimes I flip Foreman over Liston. I rate Johnson that high because I feel his resume is better than Frazier's.
An old and returning Jeffires and a bunch of middleweights? I don't know... it's tough with Johnson because he has little on film. Just for Joe being the first to beat Ali I think he has a better resume. It's the constant middleweights, and suspicious dives/declines against some fighters that has my rating Johnson not too highly (Williard). In fact, I have Dempsey over Johnson who isn't even on your list.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:29 PM   #33
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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How can you even justify a 2-1 record against Ali. Some people are just being ridiculous here.

I think 3-4 is a bit steep.

That being said I rank Frazier #5. Yet everyone here thinks I hate him here. I guess it's because he's always pegged against people I feel beat him or might have been better or able to beat him.

What hurts Frazier is his prime is supposedly limited. He goes downhill fast and really fast according to some. Maybe FOTC took loads from him as a fighter. He still has some good wins against other fighters while trying to retrace Ali/Foreman and the title. He didn't beat some of the other elites on the downturn of his career like Norton, Shavers, or Lyle. You can also argue he intentionally avoided an old Liston. A lot of them came on the up and up while he was fading out of the picture. Norton is the biggest exclusion. He can never rank above Ali for Ali has a far greater resume and far longer dominance while being the 3 time Heavyweight champion. Also on the down turn Joe has some close fights. Didn't get a chance to defend the title much. He seem to live in the glamor of things as a champion.

What helps Frazier in ranking? Beating the GOAT even at a time where he isn't at his best though. However, very importantly, being the first to beat him. Frazier winning the Olympic heavyweight gold medal. Frazier competing in the toughest era for boxing while winning the title. His performances and victories over Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, and Foster. His performances and valiant in losses against Ali (Particularly Thrilla).

With all that being said I think he's a top 10 HW. I guess it depends on your criteria. Frazier being the first to beat Ali is big in my book.

I agree!!!

Frazier is 1-4 against the best of his time, and has a rather shallow resume by ATG standards.
That said i have him anywhere between 6 and 10 on any given day.
The FOTC is his claim to fame and it was such a pivotal fight historically it is very hard to not give him extra credit for it.
I had him losing a close clear decision in the second fight and the three stoppage losses in jamaica, caracas and manilla suggest there is no way to rank him over Ali or Foreman, so unless one rates him higher than any other ATG heavy before or since them a top 4 spot is out of the question in my opinion
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:29 PM   #34
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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He lost in his prime? Many ATG heavyweight champs have. And he lost to a guy who was arguably a top 5 monster HW fighter H2H. In his absolute peak, which granted is quite a limited peak.

I can see how Holyfield might be underrated. He is the 4 time heavyweight champion. Arguably 5 time. He beat Tyson twice, Moore, Bowe, Foreman, and has probably the best resume in HW boxing. He came into the scene previously a cruiserweight in the toughest era in boxing and resilently regained the title 4 times. How didn't dominate the era, but nobody really did. Everyone glimmered in it but it's Holyfield that captured the belt and has the best resume of that decade. I have Tyson over him, but for what's it is worth you can make a great case for him to be ahead of him. But I have Holy above Lewis.
He was way too inconsistent at the top for his whole career. That has a lot to do with why he won the titles four times, I give him props as he is the only fighter in history to do that. Except for Ali, to become a two, three or four time champion, you have to lose.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:37 PM   #35
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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What's the highest HW ranking that can be justified for Joe Frazier?

Several posters here feel he's 2-1 against Ali, whom most consider the number on heavyweight of all time. It's not a consenus that he beat Ali the second time of course, but opinion is split and plenty of people in the game feel he won as well.

Factor in everything else he accomplished in his career, of course. Could he be a top 3-4 heavyweight?
Probably you could justify it. When push comes to shove, only the top 2 are written in stone. There is no natural choice for 3 IMO.

01 - Ali
02 - Louis
03 - Liston
04 - Lewis
05 - Frazier
06 - Holmes
07 - Johnson
08 - Tyson
09 - Marciano
10 - Wills
11 - Foreman
12 - Jeffries
13 - Holyfield
14 - Dempsey
15 - Schmeling
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:40 PM   #36
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

SS, who do you think is a better combination puncher, Lopez or Oscar?
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:42 PM   #37
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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He was way too inconsistent at the top for his whole career. That has a lot to do with why he won the titles four times, I give him props as he is the only fighter in history to do that. Except for Ali, to become a two, three or four time champion, you have to lose.
But he lost to Bowe, who can be argued at that time as top 5 H2H HW fight. He lost a very close decision that he could've been awarded in the Moore fight and a fight in which Holyfield had problems with his heart (It's weird the situation. But Holyfield looks strangely tired). Then who comes back and becomes the second person to beat Mike Tyson not once, but twice!

In terms of his resume. You can argue he beats 3 fighters that that are top 10 in terms of H2H (With Bowe being in that peak at the time. While Tyson still a force). He beats 3 Top 10 HW ATG fighters in Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, and beats Bowe who is at his peak in H2H monster.

Let's check out the rest of his resume.

Moorer
Stewart X2
Mercer
Ruiz
Rahman
Thomas
Holmes

And he drawed Lennox Lewis in a very controversial decision. He has the cruiserweight thing as a bonus too. I understand he doesn't have consistent longjevity but he does have arguably the best resume of any HW champ. He regained the title a record 4 times and arguably 5 for his dubious loss to Valuev. Him fighting too long might be hurting his legacy.

Truthfully, I have Holyfield ranked #11 but I can see how you could justify a 5-10 spot largely on achievement, competetion, and resume. Nobody dominated the 90's and for him to regain the title 4 times says something.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:45 PM   #38
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Probably you could justify it. When push comes to shove, only the top 2 are written in stone. There is no natural choice for 3 IMO.

01 - Ali
02 - Louis
03 - Liston
04 - Lewis
05 - Frazier
06 - Holmes
07 - Johnson
08 - Tyson
09 - Marciano
10 - Wills
11 - Foreman
12 - Jeffries
13 - Holyfield
14 - Dempsey
15 - Schmeling
Wow. Really interested in the big gap between Frazier and Foreman, especially with Joe the higher rated of the two. Can you fill me in with your reasoning?
Cheers
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:48 PM   #39
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Probably you could justify it. When push comes to shove, only the top 2 are written in stone. There is no natural choice for 3 IMO.

01 - Ali
02 - Louis
03 - Liston
04 - Lewis
05 - Frazier
06 - Holmes
07 - Johnson
08 - Tyson
09 - Marciano
10 - Wills
11 - Foreman
12 - Jeffries
13 - Holyfield
14 - Dempsey
15 - Schmeling
What's your criteria just out of curoisity? Do you highly value H2H?
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:51 PM   #40
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Wow. Really interested in the big gap between Frazier and Foreman, especially with Joe the higher rated of the two. Can you fill me in with your reasoning?
Cheers
Well in Ali, Joe has maybe the best win in the history of the division - Ali is the clear #1 for me. Schmeling benifits from this logic too, his win over Louis coming when Louis was in his physical prime (but only his second year as a pro).

Foreman does get points for the dual decimations of Frazier, but he also never landed Joe in his prime - Joe slipped badly after the beating Ali laid on him in I, but it was the mental slippage that hurt him the most I think. Having said that, it's fair to speculate that Foreman beats Frazier always. But it's this speculative thinking that's his downfall for me. Foreman does horribley with slick boxers (Ali, Young) and showed a vulnerability to punchers (Lyle). I also don't particularly care for his skillset in this company. Obviously he's a wonderful fighter, but he doesn't have a skillset I particularly admire. Foreman is maybe the only guy on this list who have a serious struggle with guys who are not on the list. I think Walcott would do him. Even Byrd would be interesting. But having said that his resume is a good one, I certainly don't object to seeing him a couple of slots higher.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:52 PM   #41
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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What's your criteria just out of curoisity? Do you highly value H2H?
Composite. I try to take it all into consideration.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:52 PM   #42
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
What's the highest HW ranking that can be justified for Joe Frazier?

Several posters here feel he's 2-1 against Ali, whom most consider the number on heavyweight of all time. It's not a consenus that he beat Ali the second time of course, but opinion is split and plenty of people in the game feel he won as well.

Factor in everything else he accomplished in his career, of course. Could he be a top 3-4 heavyweight?
About 7 or 8.

(& its 2-1 Ali )
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:01 PM   #43
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Well in Ali, Joe has maybe the best win in the history of the division - Ali is the clear #1 for me. Schmeling benifits from this logic too, his win over Louis coming when Louis was in his physical prime (but only his second year as a pro).

Foreman does get points for the dual decimations of Frazier, but he also never landed Joe in his prime - Joe slipped badly after the beating Ali laid on him in I, but it was the mental slippage that hurt him the most I think. Having said that, it's fair to speculate that Foreman beats Frazier always. But it's this speculative thinking that's his downfall for me. Foreman does horribley with slick boxers (Ali, Young) and showed a vulnerability to punchers (Lyle). I also don't particularly care for his skillset in this company. Obviously he's a wonderful fighter, but he doesn't have a skillset I particularly admire. Foreman is maybe the only guy on this list who have a serious struggle with guys who are not on the list. I think Walcott would do him. Even Byrd would be interesting. But having said that his resume is a good one, I certainly don't object to seeing him a couple of slots higher.
I agree regarding Joes victory being one of if not the best victory in HW history.
I think if you give Joe leeway for mental decline post Ali it is hard not to do so for George also.
George may struggle with guys not on the list, i personally think he would beat Byrd and Walcott, but I think hed beat a few youve got ranked higher than him also, as evidenced by Frazier
I also give him credit for the win over Moorer some 20 years after losing the title to come back and beat "The Man" is no mean feat.
Fair points youve raised though, ill have a think about it and see if i need to reassess my position
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:16 PM   #44
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

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Composite. I try to take it all into consideration.
I see. I don't think Frazier was that past it. And I think he deserves credit for Foreman being the first not only to beat him but demolish him. He also has a good resume off of that to boot. I give Foreman leeway post Ali in the ways people do for Tyson post-Douglas I guess.

It seems you evaluate skillset seeing how high Liston is. Foreman would be something that a technical boxing book might frown upon a little bit in one way. All that raw power while not entirely developed and balanced. Liston has to be one of those fighters that are nearly perfect on paper, but I don't think you can just evaluate fighters on paper. Otherwise Marciano wouldn't be able to be as good as he proved. Frazier might not have beat Ali on paper too. If you lessen Foreman's credit for Frazier, do you for Ali for underestimating Frazier and not having quite the same timing? How do you take into account the suspect dives and being knocked out in round 1 by Ali for Liston? Really tough on Dempsey, too. Your list is unique and unconventional so I can dig that. Willis 4 spots above Dempsey? 1 spot above Foreman and in the top 10? You don't see that much.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:21 PM   #45
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Default Re: Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

Frazier at one time stated he felt he was behind Marciano and Louis at #3, because he defeated Ali, but imo, I don't consider him a top 10 HW. Top 15 yes, but not top 10. I have always felt he lost both times to Oscar Bonavena, though he got the nod both times, and outside of victories over Mathis, Ellis and Ali, the rest of his challengers were either average at best or were on the downside [think Chuvalo].

He lost twice to Foreman in devestating fashion, never fought Norton, and the so-called 'win' against Ali in their second bout---at BEST---can be argued as a draw or a straight up SD win for Ali, but that is just my opinion through my eyes. Whether he wants to admit to it or not, he will be a facet of Ali's legacy, not the other way around.
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