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Old 09-11-2007, 11:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

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Originally Posted by theunderdog
i think the question is misleading to begin with. pac's prime is at 130 which was not fenech's prime.

as i have stated before, fenech probably beats pac's version at 122, it will be a toss up against pac at 126, and pac wins at 130

it's tough to picture a match up as prime for prime and without taking weight into consideration. so i won't pic a winner if no weight is chosed.
The weight would be 126. How can you call 130 his prime when he started his career fighting around 107 pounds... Its so far above his natural weight. At 126 Pac had the best victory of his career when he demolished Barrera, and in terms of punching power was a machine.
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

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Originally Posted by theunderdog
i think the question is misleading to begin with. pac's prime is at 130 which was not fenech's prime.

as i have stated before, fenech probably beats pac's version at 122, it will be a toss up against pac at 126, and pac wins at 130

it's tough to picture a match up as prime for prime and without taking weight into consideration. so i won't pic a winner if no weight is chosed.
Im still not sure about that, I mean Pac has not beaten an elite natural 130 pounder really.

He has mostly feasted on guys who made the same moves in weight as he did.

Pac looked pretty devastating at 122-126 and though he didnt have the as many big wins there he beat some good contenders. That range is probably Fenech's prime weight.
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

To be honest, at 130 he lost to Morales, and then beat a past prime version of him twice. Morales IMO was clearly not the same fighter, as prime Morales would not have lost to Raheem, especially the way he performed. His other victories at this weight are nothing speical either, and against Larios he certainly didn't look spectacular, considering Vasquez knocked him out in 3 one fight earlier.
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

Pretty spot on there MSTR
If there was nothing doing at 130 Pac wouldnt be there because he is a smaller guy physically, he comes in a couple of pounds below the limit.

Hell even only a few years ago he used to come in at 120 for superbantem fights, strong as **** and fast as ever.
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Old 09-11-2007, 11:57 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

Fenech was damm good in his prime
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:54 AM   #21
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

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Originally Posted by MSTR
The weight would be 126. How can you call 130 his prime when he started his career fighting around 107 pounds... Its so far above his natural weight. At 126 Pac had the best victory of his career when he demolished Barrera, and in terms of punching power was a machine.
you have to be blind to consider 126 as the better weight for pac. yes, it did put him on the boxing map but pac's version at 130 will beat his version at 126 becuase of themany advancements in his technique that he went through
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:58 AM   #22
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

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Originally Posted by theunderdog
you have to be blind to consider 126 as the better weight for pac. yes, it did put him on the boxing map but pac's version at 130 will beat his version at 126 becuase of themany advancements in his technique that he went through
What advancements? If he is now a superior technical fighter why did he lose to Morales and perform poorly agaisnt Larios then?
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:05 AM   #23
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

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Originally Posted by MSTR
To be honest, at 130 he lost to Morales, and then beat a past prime version of him twice. Morales IMO was clearly not the same fighter, as prime Morales would not have lost to Raheem, especially the way he performed. His other victories at this weight are nothing speical either, and against Larios he certainly didn't look spectacular, considering Vasquez knocked him out in 3 one fight earlier.
my point is simple. i'm not here to argue if he pac can still make 126 or 122. yes, he was a monster there. but if you put all things aside and look at the totality of pac's game, his version at 130 is the best so i'd say that pac is peaking at the moment at 130.

yes he was great at 122, but got clocked by skinny hussein and was a beneficiary of a long count to save his ass. you aussies should know this. at his first taste at 126, he was sent down to the canvass by an unheralded journeyman serikzan yeshmagambetov.

has pac been sent down at 130? nope, because his defence got better. one could argue that the impact of pacs power diminished when he moved up in weight but there is no denying that he is a better fighter at 130 that in any other weight where he competed in
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:09 AM   #24
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

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Originally Posted by MSTR
The weight would be 126. How can you call 130 his prime when he started his career fighting around 107 pounds... Its so far above his natural weight. At 126 Pac had the best victory of his career when he demolished Barrera, and in terms of punching power was a machine.
Yeh i agree with you and Whatarock.
Pac wouldnt be up at 130pds if it wasnt for Morales who wanted to fight him.
Id pit Pacman at 126pds at his prime.
And against Fenech at 126pds too.
Even at 130pds he gave Azumah a good fight(whether or not azumah was ill).
Also i think a Raheem type style would be a hard fight for Morales at any weight, but he would have won earlier in his career.
Damm i didnt want him to face Raheem.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:10 AM   #25
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

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Originally Posted by MSTR
What advancements? If he is now a superior technical fighter why did he lose to Morales and perform poorly agaisnt Larios then?
he lost to morales because morales was the better fighter that night plain and simple. it was not a shame to lose to morales that night but it does not mean that because he lost to morales, that he was better at 126. to add to that, it was his first fight at 130. if he did not improve, why the hell did he beat morales twice after. he did beat larrios didn't he? he decked him twice. what the hell is performing poorly with that?

if the pac who fought jmm was the same pac who fought morales, he should have lost by a bigger margin.

are you also telling me that that performance was poor because he didn't ko larrios? it was poor because it was not exciting enough? damn man.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:23 AM   #26
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theunderdog
he lost to morales because morales was the better fighter that night plain and simple. it was not a shame to lose to morales that night but it does not mean that because he lost to morales, that he was better at 126. to add to that, it was his first fight at 130. if he did not improve, why the hell did he beat morales twice after. he did beat larrios didn't he? he decked him twice. what the hell is performing poorly with that?

if the pac who fought jmm was the same pac who fought morales, he should have lost by a bigger margin.

are you also telling me that that performance was poor because he didn't ko larrios? it was poor because it was not exciting enough? damn man.
I have already explained though that Morales was clearly showing signs of age. In fact, even in the second match he was handling Pac until his legs literally started to just give up. The Larrios performance was not only dull by his standard, but also not good. Larios had fought his last fight at 120, and been KO'd in 3 by Vasquez. He had moved up well in weight to take the fight, and considering he was coming off a KO loss, Pac really should have been more dominant then he was. More importantly, can you show me exactly what technical advancements he has made? Other then that, the weight is an obvious factor, as it is definitely well above Pac's natural weight.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:25 AM   #27
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theunderdog
my point is simple. i'm not here to argue if he pac can still make 126 or 122. yes, he was a monster there. but if you put all things aside and look at the totality of pac's game, his version at 130 is the best so i'd say that pac is peaking at the moment at 130.

yes he was great at 122, but got clocked by skinny hussein and was a beneficiary of a long count to save his ass. you aussies should know this. at his first taste at 126, he was sent down to the canvass by an unheralded journeyman serikzan yeshmagambetov.

has pac been sent down at 130? nope, because his defence got better. one could argue that the impact of pacs power diminished when he moved up in weight but there is no denying that he is a better fighter at 130 that in any other weight where he competed in
His best performance of his career was at 126 though...
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:28 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSTR
I have already explained though that Morales was clearly showing signs of age. In fact, even in the second match he was handling Pac until his legs literally started to just give up. The Larrios performance was not only dull by his standard, but also not good. Larios had fought his last fight at 120, and been KO'd in 3 by Vasquez. He had moved up well in weight to take the fight, and considering he was coming off a KO loss, Pac really should have been more dominant then he was. More importantly, can you show me exactly what technical advancements he has made? Other then that, the weight is an obvious factor, as it is definitely well above Pac's natural weight.
Larios was getting stung by Vasquez and got dropped, but didnt he win via cut stoppage?
Also i agree with you i do not give Pacman much credit for his wins over Erik Morales, Morales in their fisrt fight won.
Then after that he was not the same fighter. You could make a case he wasnt in their first fight but hetill took the win.
Pacman has got overhyped by many dueto his wins over morales, i mean people are saying he is better than floyd .
As the underdog said, Larios was at a higher weight (8 pounds), so he didnt have to cut weight and he would have been stronger and been able to take a shot better than ever, also he would have been up for that fight, Knowing a win or a good showing will get him some more $$$.
Morales is a legend
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:34 AM   #29
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

vasquez is a beast at 122. larrios got older and needed to move up in weight. he drains himself to make 122. if you compare israel's win over a weight drained larrios from pac's win over larrios in what could just be the best shape of his entire career, then you're mistaken.

and yes, i agree with you MSTR that his best win ever was at 126. but it does not have to mean though that it was his peak.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:46 AM   #30
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Default Re: Jeff Fenech vs Manny Pac- Prime 4 Prime, Who Takes It?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot16
Larios was getting stung by Vasquez and got dropped, but didnt he win via cut stoppage?
Also i agree with you i do not give Pacman much credit for his wins over Erik Morales, Morales in their fisrt fight won.
Then after that he was not the same fighter. You could make a case he wasnt in their first fight but hetill took the win.
Pacman has got overhyped by many dueto his wins over morales, i mean people are saying he is better than floyd .
As the underdog said, Larios was at a higher weight (8 pounds), so he didnt have to cut weight and he would have been stronger and been able to take a shot better than ever, also he would have been up for that fight, Knowing a win or a good showing will get him some more $$$.
Morales is a legend
Your probably right, I didn't watch the Larios v Vas fight, I was just going off the result, so it may well have been. Regardless, Larios is definitely getting on, and Pac considering he is the no.2 p4p fighter in the world should have put on a more dominant performance.
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