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Old 09-13-2007, 03:56 AM   #46
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Are you saying that Schmeling didn't land clean right crosses to the jaw at all prior to that?
I am saying that it was at this point that he sprung his trap and that his trap turned the course of the fight.

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A film where Joe Louis landed 250 clean flush punches to the jaw of Max Baer? You must have some edited version that is looped to repeat every clean punch that landed several times.
What number would you suggest then?

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Clean left hooks flush to the jaw of Ibeabuchi?
If he did not land a good number over the course of the fight then he must have been verry incompetent.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:27 AM   #47
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

1) In the post you quoted in your reply I wrote that Schmeling "needed another half a hundred clean right crosses to the jaw to finish Louis", instead you are argueing that Louis was better the time before the KD.

2) I certainly didn't see even a hundred of clean flush punches to the jaw of Baer in that fight. Probably several tens of clean hard ones right to the jaw.

3) When Tua landed clean flush left hooks on occasions, Ibeabuchi didn't feel well at all. But it didn't happen often enough.
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:55 AM   #48
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by tobkhan
So, let´s summerize the picks till now in no order:

Satterfield
Marciano
Schmeling
Louis
Dempsey
Johannson
Slavin
Maher
Langford
Foster
Choinsky

I would like to throw in Floyd Patterson. What do you think of the modern day cruiserweights? Is there anybody since the founding of the division who is up there with his power?
Might as well throw in Baer, too. Braddock said he hit harder than Louis (no, I don't beleive it. but he said it).
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:04 AM   #49
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Cachibatches
Might as well throw in Baer, too. Braddock said he hit harder than Louis (no, I don't beleive it. but he said it).
Baer was well over 200 pounds for most of his career, I think.
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:26 AM   #50
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Senya13
He pointed out something everyone could see. That Schmeling needed a helluva clean right hands to stop Louis. I certainly don't see Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman, Shavers, Tyson, Lewis, Tua, W. Klitschko, etc requireing over a half hundred of their best punches landed clean to the jaw to stop somebody.
Schmeling wasn't a huge puncher. He was a good puncher who kept his power with him as the rounds went on. Schemling had good accuracy and timing with his blows.

I have Schemling vs Uzcudun, Sharkey, Walker, Max Baer and Young Stribling. Schemling could not hurt Uzcudun, Baer or Sharkey. Sharkey did not have a good chin. It took Schmeling 8 rounds of punishment to stop middle weight Walker, and 15 rounds of punishment to stop light heavyweight Stribling.

Schmeling did not KO anyone decent early. He simply was not a lights out puncher.

Regarding the Louis fight, Schemling had Louis hurt early. Louis could not recover. Schemling boxed cautious, occasionally landing hard right hands, but IMO the stuff he landed was not any harder in the fights with Stribling and Walker.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:32 AM   #51
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Senya13
1) In the post you quoted in your reply I wrote that Schmeling "needed another half a hundred clean right crosses to the jaw to finish Louis", instead you are argueing that Louis was better the time before the KD.
It comes down to this at the end of the day.

Failure of fighter A to knock out fighter B can just as easily be a function of power of fighter A or durability of fighter B. It can only be used as an indicator of the power of fighter A if fighter B has been knocked out by other fighters.

Surely you apreciate this simple logic?
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:35 AM   #52
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Senya13
2) I certainly didn't see even a hundred of clean flush punches to the jaw of Baer in that fight. Probably several tens of clean hard ones right to the jaw.
Unless you have actualy counted the punches you are just guessing.

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3) When Tua landed clean flush left hooks on occasions, Ibeabuchi didn't feel well at all. But it didn't happen often enough.
The man was standing in front of him trading with him for 12 rounds. If he did not land a large number of flush shots to his chin then he must have been the most inept fighter in history.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:48 AM   #53
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Senya13
If Blackburn was alive, you could try telling this to him. What I said is what he told to journalists before their rematch, when they asked him what he thought about Schmeling's right hand. I can only agree with him watching the number of clean right crosses Schmeling hit Louis with during that fight, and Louis was put down only once before the 12th round. Other fighters who put Louis down needed one or just a few clean punches to do that. Certainly many other small heavyweight wouldn't need over a 50 clean flush right crosses to the jaw to put somebody for the count.
Louis himself said in his autobiography that stunned as he was Schmeling should have got him out of there a lot earlier.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:51 AM   #54
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Senya13
If Blackburn was alive, you could try telling this to him. What I said is what he told to journalists before their rematch, when they asked him what he thought about Schmeling's right hand. I can only agree with him watching the number of clean right crosses Schmeling hit Louis with during that fight, and Louis was put down only once before the 12th round. Other fighters who put Louis down needed one or just a few clean punches to do that. Certainly many other small heavyweight wouldn't need over a 50 clean flush right crosses to the jaw to put somebody for the count.
Mickey Walker said Schmeling was a murderous short puncher ,but then he was a middleweight.
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:56 PM   #55
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Louis himself said in his autobiography that stunned as he was Schmeling should have got him out of there a lot earlier.
It is a matter of styles. Schmeling is a defensive conterpuncher who happens to have a substantial walop.

This means that he will take a long time to put oponents away relative to his power and will put some serious hurt on them in the process.
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:57 PM   #56
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Mickey Walker said Schmeling was a murderous short puncher ,but then he was a middleweight.
He fought enough heavyweights to judge which were the better puncher of the day.
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Old 09-13-2007, 01:09 PM   #57
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Louis himself said in his autobiography that stunned as he was Schmeling should have got him out of there a lot earlier.
True. The films show a stunned Louis for many rounds. Louis did not recover from blows as quickly as say Ali or Holmes. Schemling was thought to be past his best in the first Louis match. In truth I think he won the match more on skills as much as power.
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:27 PM   #58
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by janitor
Failure of fighter A to knock out fighter B can just as easily be a function of power of fighter A or durability of fighter B. It can only be used as an indicator of the power of fighter A if fighter B has been knocked out by other fighters.
You're again putting yourself into a corner. Now you are trying to argue that Louis' chin was so bad that a single clean right cross not only hurt Louis badly, but basically won the fight for Schmeling. Louis was known for his recuperative abilities, now all a sudden it was one punch that desided the fight?
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:32 PM   #59
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by janitor
Unless you have actualy counted the punches you are just guessing.
I would have certainly remembered if somebody landed 250 clean hard punches to the jaw in just 4 rounds of boxing. Over 60 clean hard punches to the jaw every round? Impossible.

Quote:
The man was standing in front of him trading with him for 12 rounds. If he did not land a large number of flush shots to his chin then he must have been the most inept fighter in history.
When was the last time you watched this fight?
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:36 PM   #60
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Senya13
I would have certainly remembered if somebody landed 250 clean hard punches to the jaw in just 4 rounds of boxing. Over 60 clean hard punches to the jaw every round? Impossible.
That is precisely what has been claimed by some people who have analyzed the film. If you wish to dispute this then watch the film and count the punches.

Quote:
When was the last time you watched this fight?
Again you would have to watch the fight and count the number of punches that landed. Given the nature of the fight it is highly unlikley that Tua did not land a whole heap of punches on Ibeabuchi's chin.
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