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Old 09-13-2007, 03:36 PM   #61
Senya13
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobkhan
No, actually he says that Louis had such good recuperative abilities and such a good chin that it is no wonder that Schmeling needed that many punches, especially with his cauious, defensive style.
Nah, he says this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I could argue that Schmeling droped Louis and hurt him with a singl clean overhand right he landed in the fourth round from which Louis never recovered and that nobody else who droped him actualy had him in trouble.
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:40 PM   #62
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by janitor
That is precisely what has been claimed by some people who have analyzed the film. If you wish to dispute this then watch the film and count the punches.
And these people are..? Like I said, they'd have to be related to that blindmen association 'Compubox' (their count of punches that were thrown is ok a lot of time, but punches that landed, they are usually way off of what actual number should be, as I figured out many times counting punches using slow motion and replays).

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Again you would have to watch the fight and count the number of punches that landed. Given the nature of the fight it is highly unlikley that Tua did not land a whole heap of punches on Ibeabuchi's chin.
Ibeabuchi was just standing there flat-footed and trading punches with Tua, isn't that what you were trying to say in your post?
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:41 PM   #63
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Senya13
You're again putting yourself into a corner. Now you are trying to argue that Louis' chin was so bad that a single clean right cross not only hurt Louis badly, but basically won the fight for Schmeling. Louis was known for his recuperative abilities, now all a sudden it was one punch that desided the fight?
You seem to be evading the issue a little here.

The post that you responded to here stated that it is entirely circular logic to try to judge a fighters power from the number of punches that he needs to put an oponent away because we might be talking 57 punches to put away George Chuvalo or 57 punches to put away Michael Grant.

Since nobody did any better than Schmeling in terms of the number of punches they needed to take Louis out it might simply have been the best that anybody could have done under the circumstances.
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:50 PM   #64
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

I'm not evading anything, I'm just trying to stick to the original points and not let it shift to other points instead, like who was winning these or those rounds, or that it's punches that hurt not punches that knock you out, etc.
This is not circular logic. It is the manner with which Schmeling landed his punches, right crosses clean and flush to the jaw, and I find it nearly impossible to recall any other example of a fighter with known exceptional punching power (not just good, and the one that hurts, but the one that stuns and knocks people out left and right, as Schmeling's right hand was originally claimed to be very special and exceptionally powerful in this thread) who needed over half a hundred such punches (clean and flush to the jaw with their best punches) to finish somebody off.
I also argued that it wasn't the first right cross that Schmeling landed which you claimed knocked Louis down and desided the fight, and that other people knocked Louis down with single punches, not a repeatition of power shots like was the case with Schmeling.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:00 PM   #65
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
And these people are..?
"Joe Louis is what I call a bruising puncher. But he’s not one of those one punch finishers He hit Max Baer over 250 times right on the whiskers and still Max wasn’t unconscious when he was counted out on one knee".

Harry Wills

Quote:
Ibeabuchi was just standing there flat-footed and trading punches with Tua, isn't that what you were trying to say in your post?
I am saying that they landed a lot of leather on eachothers chins.

Why do you think they call it tghe fight where something had to give but nothing did?
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:05 PM   #66
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
This is not circular logic. It is the manner with which Schmeling landed his punches, right crosses clean and flush to the jaw, and I find it nearly impossible to recall any other example of a fighter with known exceptional punching power (not just good, and the one that hurts, but the one that stuns and knocks people out left and right, as Schmeling's right hand was originally claimed to be very special and exceptionally powerful in this thread) who needed over half a hundred such punches (clean and flush to the jaw with their best punches) to finish somebody off.
I have provided examples and even if there were none it might just be that Louis simply had the greatest chin ever.

Like I said nobody else did any better.

Quote:
I also argued that it wasn't the first right cross that Schmeling landed which you claimed knocked Louis down and desided the fight, and that other people knocked Louis down with single punches, not a repeatition of power shots like was the case with Schmeling.
If the fight had gone only 8 rounds then Schmeling would have just as much claim to have droped Louis with a punch or combination as anybody else due to the knockdown in the fourth.

Again nobody else did any better and all the fighters who droped Louis were regarded as punchers.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:33 PM   #67
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Cachibatches
Might as well throw in Baer, too. Braddock said he hit harder than Louis (no, I don't beleive it. but he said it).
Jimmy Braddock was not the only one who said Max Baer was a harder puncher than Louis, but Maxie tended to telegraph before his loss to Loughran. (Tommy advised him of the fact he was tipping off his punches after outboxing him.) The Larruper also threw much longer shots, which generated more steam, but were also easier to avoid.

No, Louis wasn't the hardest puncher blow for blow, but nobody could put together their combinations like he did, and his well balanced and short traveling strikes were economically consistent in their force, with each impact building on the effects of the last. (Buddy Baer described what getting punched by Louis was like in graphically lucid terms. That account is readily found on-line.) The impression I get is that each short and hard to avoid whack knocked an opponent into the next one, for an unparalleled accumulative beat-down.

The hardest punch Louis ever delivered was the one which floored Uzcudun for a count of seven (Referee Arthur Donovan also described it as the hardest punch he ever witnessed, but he wasn't on the receiving end of it. Uzcudun reportedly agreed with Carnera, Braddock and Schmeling that Baer was indeed the hardest puncher they faced, although Louis was their best opponent.) He weighed 200-1/2 for that match. The hardest punch Louis delivered while weighing under 200 would seem to be the right hand he knocked out Braddock with.

Max Baer weighed 197 for Franke Campbell, and was reportedly never as ruthless again.

Schmeling was a counterpuncher who preferred to hook his rights on an opponent moving in. The shot he blasted down Stribling with is a classic example of this. But he wasn't somebody who committed to his right with abandon, never getting full extension behind it. He needed his foe's cooperation to deliver it with maximun lethality.

I absolutely stand behind Dempsey in this category. The huge Willard stood up to everything Firpo could dish out for over six rounds (when he was past 40 years old), and he withstood everything a beefed up Jack Johnson could deliver for over 25 rounds. Yet Dempsey blasted him down in a minute and a half. He also bounced the Foreman sized Firpo up and down like a basketball, before drubbing him down early in round two with a single uppercut which left Luis on the deck for substantially longer than the count of ten. He dropped Tunney for the only time in Gene's career with essentially two punches; the mid ring counter right which wobbled Tunney to the ropes, and the hook which caught Tunney as he rebounded off those ropes. Just two shots to put him down.

Marciano pounded away on opponents his own weight, for the most part, never having the chance to demonstrate his power against a modern sized superheavyweight.

Louis needed a few rounds to drop Carnera. Max Baer needed one. (Of course I realize that results like this can be misleading. Foster reunified the LHW against Rondon in two rounds, a loss which Vincente followed up by again getting kayoed in two by Ron Lyle. Rondon's very next outing saw him go ten rounds with 200 pound Earnie Shavers. Go figure.)

Last edited by Darkside; 06-16-2006 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:49 PM   #68
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
Uzcudun reportedly agreed with Carnera, Braddock and Schmeling that Baer was indeed the hardest puncher they faced, although Louis was their best opponent.)
Curtis Shepherd who was a common sparring partner of Louis and Baer also said that Baer hit harder.

At a guess I think that Baer was possibly the hardest puncher of all the heavyweight champions.
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Old 09-14-2007, 06:04 AM   #69
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Curtis Shepherd who was a common sparring partner of Louis and Baer also said that Baer hit harder.

At a guess I think that Baer was possibly the hardest puncher of all the heavyweight champions.
I've always felt that Dempsey held this distinction, but it may well have indeed been Max Baer in actuality.

A common sparring partner of both Louis and Marciano stated that, "Louis was faster, with a barrage of punches. But Marciano hit harder with one punch than Louis did with four." I wonder if anybody ever had the opportunity to compare Dempsey's power to Maxie's.

In an earlier post, somebody mentioned Fitzsimmons, but I consider Ruby Robert to be a sub 180 pounder, like Foster and Mike Spinks.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:09 PM   #70
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
I've always felt that Dempsey held this distinction, but it may well have indeed been Max Baer in actuality.
Hell it could be Dempsey. I tend to think that with Dempsey technique was a big part of his effectivenes as well as power however.

Quote:
A common sparring partner of both Louis and Marciano stated that, "Louis was faster, with a barrage of punches. But Marciano hit harder with one punch than Louis did with four."
Joe Walcott said something similar.

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I wonder if anybody ever had the opportunity to compare Dempsey's power to Maxie's.
I guess the guy to ask would be Max Schmeling. He fought Max Baer and had a live fire exhibition with Jack Dempsey.

Quote:
In an earlier post, somebody mentioned Fitzsimmons, but I consider Ruby Robert to be a sub 180 pounder, like Foster and Mike Spinks.
Fitzsimmons certainly deserves a mention but like with Dempsey and Louis there is perhaps an issue of technique enhancing power.
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:09 PM   #71
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by janitor
Hell it could be Dempsey. I tend to think that with Dempsey technique was a big part of his effectivenes as well as power however.
Reading Dempsey's Championship Fighting, then comparing the techniques he describes against his best film clips makes this abundantly clear. Just as Arguello's precision placement is what made his punches so devastating, so too did Jack's toe pivoting, shoulder whirling, hip rotation and timely fist squeezing (among other factors of execution), all in a confluence of perfectly timed synchronicity. I just can't get that third round image of the force behind Dempsey's mid ring hook to the body driving the 245 pound Willard into an airborne hop. I never saw Foreman do anything like it to somebody who outweighed Big George by over 60 pounds.
Quote:
I guess the guy to ask would be Max Schmeling. He fought Max Baer and had a live fire exhibition with Jack Dempsey.
RIP Max. As much a class act as boxing has ever produced. It's my understanding that he always enjoyed discussing boxing, so it's highly likely that he provided such comparisons between Dempsey, Baer and Louis, during his long, apparently happy, and well-deserved retirement.
Quote:
Fitzsimmons certainly deserves a mention but like with Dempsey and Louis there is perhaps an issue of technique enhancing power.
He was certainly born blessed with the long collarbone which translates into power generating shoulder width, and the blacksmithing he did definitely enhanced the necessary upper body development required. But he also did perform interesting mental exercises to further aid his capacity in this regard, and was enough of a technician to have Gans adopt Ruby Robert as his idol.

Your post indicates that you are looking more for examples of inborn power, rather than methodically self-developed power. If this impression is correct, then by your definition Max Baer would indeed be the one to most closely represent that criteria. (Please feel free to further clarify your meaning, if you are so inclined, and think it may be warranted, as I highly value your input.)

Marciano's overhand right was certainly a manifestation of inborn power, but he worked with Goldman for a number of years to develop the hook which floored Louis and took out Matthews. Remarkable success there.
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:55 PM   #72
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Your post indicates that you are looking more for examples of inborn power, rather than methodically self-developed power. If this impression is correct, then by your definition Max Baer would indeed be the one to most closely represent that criteria. (Please feel free to further clarify your meaning, if you are so inclined, and think it may be warranted, as I highly value your input.)
OK.

I am fully willing to believe that Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis might have hit as hard as any fighter that ever breathed. My point is that there are two components to punching efectivness which are power and technique.

where you have a fighter with outstanding technique and delivery like Dempsey it is hard to say to what extent it is his power and to what extent it is his method that makes him so efective. With a guy like Baer or Foreman you dont have to ask what the critical factor is.

I am flattered that you value my opinion.
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Old 09-14-2007, 03:01 PM   #73
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

Elmer Ray was a very hard hitter who weighted just under 200 he didn't knocked many great fighters but he did hold a lot of knockouts. Rex Layne was also a very hard hitter might not be the hardest but still pack a solid punch.
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Old 09-14-2007, 06:38 PM   #74
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by janitor
OK.

I am fully willing to believe that Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis might have hit as hard as any fighter that ever breathed. My point is that there are two components to punching efectivness which are power and technique.

where you have a fighter with outstanding technique and delivery like Dempsey it is hard to say to what extent it is his power and to what extent it is his method that makes him so efective. With a guy like Baer or Foreman you dont have to ask what the critical factor is.
No, you certainly don't. All right then. Who else might you categorize highly in the 180 to 200 pound range in this respect?
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:06 PM   #75
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Default Re: Power 180-200 pounds

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
No, you certainly don't. All right then. Who else might you categorize highly in the 180 to 200 pound range in this respect?
Tom Sharky?
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