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Old 08-09-2009, 11:38 PM   #1
SuzieQ49
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Default 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

Who of the 210lb + men Dempsey fought would beat the 37 year old 6'2 214lb Joe Louis of 1951?

I would say none. I feel the Joe Louis of 1951 was still a class above the big men Jack Dempsey beat.


For those that think Louis would be beaten...please expain how they would be able to outbox the fundamentally skilled veteran, avoid his thundering left jab, penetrate his high gaurd, and be able to outslug the hulking still dangerous legend?

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 08-10-2009 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 08-09-2009, 11:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post

I would say none. I feel the Joe Louis of 1951 was still a class above the big men Jack Dempsey beat.
What 210-plus fighters was Louis beating in that time to show he was still adept against that kind of opponent?
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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What 210-plus fighters was Louis beating in that time to show he was still adept against that kind of opponent?

Nino Valdez? Louis knocked him out in one round. What about Dempseys big victims? Its not like they were were proving themselves against quality prime big men...who were they beating in that time that was big and world class? 42 year old inactive Willard doesnt count for Firpo...Willard hadnt won a fight in 4 years, and the only world class 210lb man Fulton fought he got dominated in 3 rounds by Harry Wills.
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Old 08-10-2009, 01:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Nino Valdez? Louis knocked him out in one round.
When was that? The only time I ever heard of them getting together was in a couple of exhibitions prior to Joe making his comeback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
What about Dempseys big victims? Its not like they were were proving themselves against quality prime big men...who were they beating in that time that was big and world class?
But we're not talking about how they'd do against a quality prime big man. You're talking about they'd do against a quality past-prime big man. Which is exactly what Willard beat to get his title.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
42 year old inactive Willard doesnt count for Firpo...Willard hadnt won a fight in 4 years, ...
No, Willard had just KO'd contender Floyd Johnson a couple months earlier, which made him one fight away from a rematch with Dempsey.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
... and the only world class 210lb man Fulton fought he got dominated in 3 rounds by Harry Wills.
No, he also beat leading contender Carl Morris and is credited with besting Willard in an exhibition.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Nino Valdez? Louis knocked him out in one round. What about Dempseys big victims? Its not like they were were proving themselves against quality prime big men...who were they beating in that time that was big and world class? 42 year old inactive Willard doesnt count for Firpo...Willard hadnt won a fight in 4 years, and the only world class 210lb man Fulton fought he got dominated in 3 rounds by Harry Wills.
In 51 Louis, had 8 fights , he won 7 scoring 3 stoppages, a ko in 6 over Savold ,who was himself 36 years old, a tko on cuts over Beshore 28-10-1,and a 10rd ko over Andy Walker 17-8-7.
I dont think Louis had much thunder left by then.
Louis had 2 exhibitions with Valdes,in Jan 49,and Feb 50,according to Louis' autobiography, both went the 4rds scheduled.
Of the three stoppages Beshore was 5' 9'', conceding 18 1/2 pounds.

Walker had had 31 fights when he fought Louis and won 21 of them, being stopped 4 times,after the Louis fight he had a further
11 fights and lost them all, 4 by stoppage.
Savold was as far past his best as Louis was,imo.
My point is, Louis was no longer stopping class men who were in their prime .[Savold was 36].
A prime or near prime Louis , with a 20lbs weight advantage, would not be taken 10rds by Agramonte twice, neither would Walker have survived into the 10th.

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Old 08-10-2009, 06:46 AM   #6
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

Louis would beat them, a class above those club fighters old or not
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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Louis had 2 exhibitions with Valdes,in Jan 49,and Feb 50,according to Louis' autobiography, both went the 4rds scheduled.

Your Wrong. March 14 1950 Louis knocked out Valdez in one round or two rounds depending on the source. Chicago Tribune reports Louis knocked Valdez out in 1:50 of the second round of a live 10 round exhibition.

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Old 08-10-2009, 12:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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When was that? The only time I ever heard of them getting together was in a couple of exhibitions prior to Joe making his comeback.

March 14 1950....Louis knocked Valdez out in either 1 or 2 rounds depending on the source. Look it up for yourself..Chicago Tribune reports a full article on it.


Quote:

But we're not talking about how they'd do against a quality prime big man. You're talking about they'd do against a quality past-prime big man. Which is exactly what Willard beat to get his title.

We are talking about the Jess Willard who fought JACK DEMPSEY...meaning the near 38 year old Horrible inactive out of shape Jess Willard. Not the Willard who fought Johnson. So we are taking the Louis who fought Marciano vs the Willard who fought Dempsey. In my opinion there is no contest.


Quote:

No, Willard had just KO'd contender Floyd Johnson a couple months earlier, which made him one fight away from a rematch with Dempsey.

Johnson a contender? A no...beating washed up versions of brennan and fulton and losing to Jack McAuliffe II does not make you a contender. He would also be kayoed by Jack Renault shortly afterward.


Willard was 42 year old punching bag when he fought Firpo...he had recorded just one win in the past SEVEN YEARS!!!

Quote:
No, he also beat leading contender Carl Morris and is credited with besting .
Like I said, Fulton is the best bet to beat a 37 year old Louis...but lets face it Morris was extremley average and even he recorded a win over Fulton. Please explain how you think Fulton would stylistically beat Joe Louis?


Quote:
Willard in an exhibition

If we are counting live exhibitions, then Joe Louis must deserve credit for blasting away future leading contender Nino Valdez.
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:39 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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In 51 Louis, had 8 fights , he won 7 scoring 3 stoppages, a ko in 6 over Savold ,who was himself 36 years old, a tko on cuts over Beshore 28-10-1,and a 10rd ko over Andy Walker 17-8-7.
I dont think Louis had much thunder left by then.
Louis had 2 exhibitions with Valdes,in Jan 49,and Feb 50,according to Louis' autobiography, both went the 4rds scheduled.
Of the three stoppages Beshore was 5' 9'', conceding 18 1/2 pounds.

Walker had had 31 fights when he fought Louis and won 21 of them, being stopped 4 times,after the Louis fight he had a further
11 fights and lost them all, 4 by stoppage.
Savold was as far past his best as Louis was,imo.
My point is, Louis was no longer stopping class men who were in their prime .[Savold was 36].
A prime or near prime Louis , with a 20lbs weight advantage, would not be taken 10rds by Agramonte twice, neither would Walker have survived into the 10th.

I dont see what any of this has to do with Joe Louis fighting Fred Fulton, Jess Willard, Carl Morris, and Luis Firpo....Whats your thoughts here?


All you did above was take Joe Louis "DOMINATING" victories and try to belittle them.


ps Lee Savold was coming off a career best victory 4 round stoppage over top rated Bruce Wood****. Savold was also the BBBC heavyweight champion of the world and # 2 rated by Ring Magazine. This is a dominant signifigant win for Joe Louis. Savold had not been stopped in five years and only once in the past TEN years.
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:42 PM   #10
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

I think Dempsey's entirely overrated, however I recognize his skillset and the impact he made. Thus he still remains in my top 10 HW list. As time goes by, though, he starts to slide a bit. Old time writers seem to give him leeway or rank him high. I guess he was their hero, either way I don't see any justification for ranking him in your top 3.

As for this subject, I don't know to be frank. Maybe Firpo? That's still a stretch of a maybe.
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
We are talking about the Jess Willard who fought JACK DEMPSEY...meaning the near 38 year old Horrible inactive out of shape Jess Willard. Not the Willard who fought Johnson. So we are taking the Louis who fought Marciano vs the Willard who fought Dempsey.
The Louis who fought Marciano is not the one who fought Valdez, but yet you brought that fight up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
In my opinion there is no contest.
Why? Just because Willard lost to a peak Dempsey? What young, peak HW great did Louis show he was capable of beating at this stage?


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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Johnson a contender? A no...beating washed up versions of brennan and fulton and losing to Jack McAuliffe II does not make you a contender.
It already DID make him a contender. That's the facts. You can't change history just because you don't "agree" with it.

And moreover, it doesn't excuse you for posting a blatant untruth by claiming the fight never happened.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Willard was 42 year old punching bag when he fought Firpo...he had recorded just one win in the past SEVEN YEARS!!!
He still was a legit leading contender then, no matter how many excuses/spins you try to make.

And unless you've seen him fight around that time, you have no business dismissing him as just a "punching bag" then.

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Please explain how you think Fulton would stylistically beat Joe Louis?
Assuming he did beat Louis, I would expect it would be with the same attributes he's reported as using in his other wins, ie: a jab, boxing ability, power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
If we are counting live exhibitions, then Joe Louis must deserve credit for blasting away future leading contender Nino Valdez.
Seeing as you're the one who "counted" exhibitions in the first place, why did you discount Fulton's exhibition with Willard?
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
All you did above was take Joe Louis "DOMINATING" victories and try to belittle them.
That's exactly what you did to other fighters in your previous post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
ps Lee Savold was coming off a career best victory 4 round stoppage over top rated Bruce Wood****. Savold was also the BBBC heavyweight champion of the world and # 2 rated by Ring Magazine. This is a dominant signifigant win for Joe Louis. Savold had not been stopped in five years and only once in the past TEN years.
This is another case of you selectively emphasizing things to fit your viewpoint. If you wanted to, you could just as easily belittle Savold by dismissing him as being a 30-something year old "punching bag" who was only a couple fights away from retiring. But now because you're looking to give Joe Louis credit, you go in the other direction and build him up.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
I dont see what any of this has to do with Joe Louis fighting Fred Fulton, Jess Willard, Carl Morris, and Luis Firpo....Whats your thoughts here?


All you did above was take Joe Louis "DOMINATING" victories and try to belittle them.


ps Lee Savold was coming off a career best victory 4 round stoppage over top rated Bruce Wood****. Savold was also the BBBC heavyweight champion of the world and # 2 rated by Ring Magazine. This is a dominant signifigant win for Joe Louis. Savold had not been stopped in five years and only once in the past TEN years.
My point Suzie was that you referred to Louis as" hulking" and how would anyone" outslug him".
At that stage of Louis ring career ,he was not capable of outslugging the young turks of the division.Savold was 36.past his best ,his best win was not over Wood****,but over the man who ruined Wood**** ,Joe Baksi.Baksi floored Wood**** 5 times in 7 rds for a stoppage win, it was a slaughter.
Savold managed a dec over Baksi in 44 ,two further fights with him that year saw him lose both,the second fight had the scorecards 10-2 9-3 and 11-1,Savold was not in it.
Even at his best Savold was never a really top fighter,and 7 years later , when he fought Louis he was past it, out side of the Uk , no one took the BBBof C's claim of a Heavyweight title seriously and it soon died a death.
Inflating Louis's win over Savold wont cut it, contemporary accounts of the fight stressed Savold was past his best ,and only the dearth of live young contenders enabled him to acheive his high ranking.
Wood**** himself only got his rating because of a dubious dsq win over Savold and a win over Lee Oma which was named "Oma, Coma ,Aroma" ,by Peter Wilson.
Savold had been kod in 2 rds by Elmer Ray in 46 , chucked out for stalling with Arturo Godoy the same year, he was a fighter in decline, when he fought Louis he had had one fight in 4 years, the 4 rd stoppage over Wood****.
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

Quote:
The Louis who fought Marciano is not the one who fought Valdez, but yet you brought that fight up.

So your saying Louis was better in March of 1950 than he was in September of 1951?

Quote:
Why? Just because Willard lost to a peak Dempsey? What young, peak HW great did Louis show he was capable of beating at this stage?
He showed he was capable of hurting and giving a young peak HW comparable to Dempsey(Marciano) a competitive liveley fight, unlike Willard who got utterly destroyed in a one sided manslaughter. Louis won 3 of the first 5 rounds vs a Peak Marciano.

Quote:
It already DID make him a contender. That's the facts. You can't change history just because you don't "agree" with it.

And moreover, it doesn't excuse you for posting a blatant untruth by claiming the fight never happened.
So you are claiming Floyd Johnson was top 10? prove it then. I would like to see it. Fact remains Louis beat more top 10 rated contenders and alot more fringe contenders than Willard did around that time.

Louis 8-2 record from 1950-1951 > Willard's 1-2 record from 1919-1922

Quote:
Assuming he did beat Louis, I would expect it would be with the same attributes he's reported as using in his other wins, ie: a jab, boxing ability, power.
So he is going to outjab Louis and outbox him and outslug him? How?

Quote:
Seeing as you're the one who "counted" exhibitions in the first place, why did you discount Fulton's exhibition with Willard?
What was the final result of Fulton vs Willard? Did the press record it as a "W" for Fulton? At least with Louis-Valdez, the OFFICIAL result was a Knockout in the 2nd round.

Quote:
That's exactly what you did to other fighters in your previous post.

All I said was Joe Louis was ACTIVE and beating world class fighters around the world leading up to the marciano fight...while Willard was INACTIVE for FOUR years and had not recorded a single win during this stretch. Joe and Willard were both past there primes, but clearly Joe was the more proven fighter. Also...Joe Would have iced Willard in his prime, so you would suspect both past there prime...The more active Joe would throroughly defeat Willard.
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: 1950 Joe Louis vs Dempsey's big men

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he was not capable of outslugging the young turks of the division

So who outside of Rocky Marciano would have outslugged Joe Louis in 1951?
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