Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-14-2009, 08:35 PM   #31
SuzieQ49
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Martha's Vineyard
Posts: 13,439
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
I'd pick the Vitali that fought Lennox over anyone on Holyfield's win column

O dear god. Please don't turn into a klitmaniac. Vitali is not an ATG and is far inferior to Bowe in every department.
SuzieQ49 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 08-14-2009, 08:44 PM   #32
BoxingFanNo1
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,935
vCash: 2650
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
The Bowe of the second fight was pretty good. The Tyson that Holy beat was 100 times better than the one Lewis beat.
Doesnt matter who he lost to. Wins for wins, Holy has better wins over far better fighters in my opinion.
The fact Bowe was willing to fight Holyfield 3x and couldn't even fight Lewis x1 tells me all I need to know.
BoxingFanNo1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 08:46 PM   #33
SuzieQ49
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Martha's Vineyard
Posts: 13,439
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Pontius...just because Evander beat a far past his prime post prison mike tyson doesnt mean evander rates higher h2h. Tyson fooled the public with his knockout over a petrified aging Frank Bruno that he was "Back" but in reality he showed me nothing to indicate that. His headmovement and combinations to the body were non exisstent anymore. He was so predictable. His timing also was not what it used to be, and his stamina was nowhere near as good. Tyson did not record any good wins from 1995-2002 to indicate to me he was still a great fighter during that stretch. There were plenty of young guns out there like Tua, Ibebuchi, Ruiz, Byrd, Klitschkos, Bowe that he could have proven himself..but instead feasted on 2nd raters. That was not the tyson that ransacked through the dangerous alphabet soup champions of the 1980s. I firmly believe a 1988 Mike Tyson beats any version of Evander. It is an honest opinion.
SuzieQ49 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 09:09 PM   #34
JMMisking
Journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bournemouth, UK
Posts: 83
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

My favourite all time boxer but why didn't he retire after john ruiz first beat him? Top 15. He was so relentless in his prime which made him great to watch
JMMisking is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 10:00 PM   #35
Muchmoore
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post

But even a Bowe a little overweight is still far better than McCall or Rahman and the majority of Lewis other wins.
Yes, and Vitali is far better than most of Holyfield's wins. Tuaman, Holyfield himself are better than the majority of Holyfield's wins as well.

I'm not denying that the Bowe win isn't special, but it doesn't blow Lennox's best wins out of the water either like you are trying to make it look like
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 10:03 PM   #36
Muchmoore
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
O dear god. Please don't turn into a klitmaniac. Vitali is not an ATG and is far inferior to Bowe in every department.
Vitali is far harder to hit than Bowe ever was, that's a pretty important department in my view at least.

He also took the better shot (Although Bowe could certainly take a punch as well)
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 10:05 PM   #37
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,104
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
I think we can all agree he was the best boxer to fight in the cruiserweight division, but where do you rank him at heavyweight? I've seen him ranked everywhere from 5 to 20.
Around 12.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 10:08 PM   #38
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,104
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
O dear god. Please don't turn into a klitmaniac. Vitali is not an ATG and is far inferior to Bowe in every department.

Suzie,

You're looking like a novice here. Embrace the truth and facts. In this case Vitali took a better punch, was bigger, had a higher work rate, and kept himself more focused in comparison to Bowe. Vitali was also much better on defense. I highly doubt a guy like Golta would smack Vitali around.

I do think Bowe was a top fighter. He also had Eddie Futch teaching him, and that's huge. Vitlali is stuck with Sudnek.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2009, 10:08 PM   #39
Muchmoore
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Doesnt matter who he lost to. Wins for wins, Holy has better wins over far better fighters in my opinion.
If you think an overweight Bowe and a Tyson that had a handful of rounds in 5 years is far better than anyone Lewis ever stepped in there with than there's no point in continuing this.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 06:10 AM   #40
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
Do you rank Lewis ahead of Holyfield?

Yes i do. Muchmoore said pretty much what i think about the case: Lewis was a bit more consistent, looked better at his best, like Holyfield fought everyone out there, and unlike Holyfield beat every man he faced and has the unique distinction (shared only with Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey) that he beat the future champion when past his best himself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Pontius...just because Evander beat a far past his prime post prison mike tyson doesnt mean evander rates higher h2h. Tyson fooled the public with his knockout over a petrified aging Frank Bruno that he was "Back" but in reality he showed me nothing to indicate that. His headmovement and combinations to the body were non exisstent anymore. He was so predictable. His timing also was not what it used to be, and his stamina was nowhere near as good. Tyson did not record any good wins from 1995-2002 to indicate to me he was still a great fighter during that stretch. There were plenty of young guns out there like Tua, Ibebuchi, Ruiz, Byrd, Klitschkos, Bowe that he could have proven himself..but instead feasted on 2nd raters. That was not the tyson that ransacked through the dangerous alphabet soup champions of the 1980s. I firmly believe a 1988 Mike Tyson beats any version of Evander. It is an honest opinion.
An honest opinion, but no more than an opinion. Fact is that Holyfield beat Tyson. I agree that he no longer was the whirlwind that he was during the late 80's, and i don't think anyone pretends that to be the case. But Holyfield was considered washed up himself, and i think Tyson still looked awesome in disposing of Bruno faster than anyone did. Certainly during the first 5 rounds of the Holyfield bout he used plenty of head movement and combinations.

Afterwards, he still destroyed Golota, who many think had beaten Ruiz (the young gun you're mentioning), when he [Golota] was in physically worse condition than against Tyson. He also knocked out Botha with one of the best one punch knockouts in heavyweight history, and faster than an offensively peaking Wlad could. Again, he wasn't the complete puncher that he was during the late 80's, but he was still and iron chinned puncher with fast hands, albeit with limited stamina and at that point, heart.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 06:13 AM   #41
My dinner with Conteh
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,999
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Between 10-12, a great heavyweight, not a great heavyweight champion. Too often the 'win two/lose one' type to be ranked that much higher. Like a big Jimmy Carter.
My dinner with Conteh is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 07:07 AM   #42
groove
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,028
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

i've got him between 10-12 aswell. great fighter at his peak v tyson. fast with great combos and defo was the real deal when it came to fighting heart. should have retired a long time ago. the real deal left the scene many many years ago.
groove is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 08:43 AM   #43
rekcutnevets
Black Sash
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: InYourMouth, NC
Posts: 6,552
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes
Lewis
Marciano
Foreman
Frazier
Holyfield
Tyson

Holyfield moved up from the cruiserweight division, where he was also champion, to excel in the heavyweight division like no other fighter moving up from below 200 lbs. has ever done. What he lacked in size, he more than made up for it with courage, determination, chin, and heart. He also had decent strength, a crisp punch, and above average speed. While his boxing skills were always apparent, he reinvented himself after losing his title to Riddick Bowe in 1992. He put on a masterful performance when he beat Bowe to regain his title a year later. He seemed to decline afterwards, losing a disputed decision to Michael Moore. He again rose to championship form, putting on a wonderful boxing display in stopping Mike Tyson, and another solid outing when he stopped Michael Moorer in their rematch. Other notable wins came against Michael Dokes, an aging George Foreman, an aging Larry Holmes, Ray Mercer, and Hasim Rahman.


I use to rate Holyfield one spot behind Lewis, but Lewis has climbed a bit over the past few years. Lewis had his flaws, but did not seem overly confused by any style in particular. He had a size advantage over Holyfield. His competition was on par with Holyfield's. Not to mention a win over Holyfield, though I feel Holyfield had clearly declined at that point. Lewis had a booming right hand, stiff jab, and has a victory over every fighter he has faced. With sixteen successful title defenses, spread over the course of two reigns, he ranks third amongst the heavyweight champions. He had a suspect chin, and was not always properly motivated for his fights; but only suffered two set backs in spite of these flaws. It would have been nice to have seen how he would have dealt with Riddick Bowe, but he was able to beat one man that had previously defeated Bowe(Holyfield) He also made short work of Andrew Golata. Golata had previously thrown two dominant performances over Riddick Bowe away due to fouls. Lewis also showed the ability to overcome adversity. He was in very close fight with Frank Bruno, and turned it on to stop him in the seventh. He was losing, in my opinion, to Vitali Klitschko; but seemed to be taking the fight over when that bout was stopped due to an awful gash near Klitschko's eye. Other than the aforementioned fighters, notable wins came against Razor Ruddock, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Shannon Briggs, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, and Mike Tyson.
rekcutnevets is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 09:15 AM   #44
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,533
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

First of all the talk of him beating a far past his prime Tyson is simply not true. The post prison Tyson, many years younger than Holyfield, was on a tear coming into the bout. Forget the McNeely joke. He destroyed Frank Bruno, looking fantastic doing it. He crushed Bruce Seldon. His confidence was on an all time high and he was looking as good as he ever did post Spinks. He was a huge favorite coming in for a reason so let's not rewrite history. All the talk was how the new Tyson, back from prison, focused, hard and still young was going to slaughter Holyfield. I completely disagree w SQ's assesment that Tyson was vastly inferior. He was still lightning fast, he was still a killer puncher, he still came into the ring in terrific shape and he was still young.

The young, prime Bowe who fought Holyfield was an incredible fighter. Size, speed, strength and power. Amazing ability to go to the body. The first Holyfield fight remains one of the toughest, most brutal fights I have ever seen. Anyone who has not watched it recently must do so again. I cannot believe the shots both guys gave and took. AS a war it makes Manila look like an exhibition. It is a shame that Bowe lacked the desire to stay in that form of shape. If he did he would have been top ten in my book for sure. As it is, on that one night few fighters would have ever beaten him.

I happen to rank Lewis top ten without question. On his game few guys would have survived him. Too big and too good. I personally feel , head to head, Evander beats him. I saw enough on what Lennox could not do to an old Evander to make me believe a near prime Evander was too much a of a bad match up for him.

I think Ali and Holmes decision Holyfield. If you watch the Holmes fight, there are times an old Holmes makes him look bad.

I think Joe Louis takes him but it would be very tough.

I think Frazier beats him over 15 in a hell of a war. Terrifying.

Johnson could decision him. Maybe. Not sure.

Liston would be extremely tough.

That may be it.
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 09:16 AM   #45
lefthook31
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in a boxing gym near you
Posts: 10,432
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Where Do You Rank Evander Holyfield As A Heavyweight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muchmoore View Post
If you think an overweight Bowe and a Tyson that had a handful of rounds in 5 years is far better than anyone Lewis ever stepped in there with than there's no point in continuing this.
I would say the Tua that showed up for the Lewis fight was in far worse shape than the Bowe that showed up for the second Holyfield fight not to mention Bowe had more skills in his pinky finger than Tua.
My opinion is that fighting a savvy veteran, former ATG or a great fighter, especially ones that easily proved they could compete on the same level as Lewis holds more merit than beating guys that Lewis was beating.
Besides Holyfield, Lewis cemented his legacy on guys who never really amounted to anything, or were anything, and the guys that did have some decent boxing lineage gave him fits. Tyson, Holyfield and Foreman were competing and winning on the same level as Lewis. Lennox was really good at beating guys who were big strong offensive fighters, but some of the guys that could actually box gave him a little trouble. He was knocked out by single punches by fighters who were complete long shots. You dont see that on Holyfields resume in his prime.
Bowe, even though he didnt turn out to be an all time great, had all time great skills, and he showed them in two fights against Holyfield. Tyson although past his best, was still a motivated fighter coming out of prison, and in far better condition both mentally and physically than the version Lewis beat, and still showed he could blow out the same guys Lewis was, and just as easily.
Who did Lewis beat that was on the level of the Bowe or Tyson that Holy beat? Please dont tell me Mike Grant or Andrew Golota or Shannon Briggs.
I think regardless of Lewis win record or avenging his wins, Holyfield has the better resume and wins against better fighters. Avenging a loss against a fighter you should have beaten anyway because they were a huge long shot, is no big accomplishment in my book.
lefthook31 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013