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Old 09-11-2007, 10:41 PM   #1
mattdonnellon
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Default overated cleveland williams

am i missing something or is Cleveland Williams overated? folley, machen, terrell, doug jones, chuvalo, cleroux seem to be rated lower, why?
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

He was KO'd in 3 by Bob Satterfeild, could not Ko Keene Simmons(who Marciano KO'd in 8 a year or so earlier and then they made him a monster vs Liston. Williams was better before he got shot up but when he fought Ali he was a shot fighter. In his prime he was a built fighter for those times but he was no world beater
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

He stopped Terrell, drew with Machen, and lost a split decision to Terrell. That's decent. Against inferior opposition he was impressive. But against the very best, Liston and Ali, he didn't have what it takes. Satterfield got him, too. With Satterfield it's sort of like either he knocks you out or you knock him out. That was one crazy dude. With Williams' chin and his penchant to mix it up, I can sort of understand why that happened.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

Yes, I personally think Williams is very overrated, thanks to the sort of mystique he gives off thanks to his imposing appearance, tales of having been ducked by elite opponents, and perceived status as a rival of Sonny Liston. In spite of having those things, Williams' career frankly lacks substance compared with many other heavyweight contenders'. He defeated exactly one top 10 opponent in his entire near-100-pro-fight career- Terrell in the first fight-, and came up short every other time he stepped up against elite opposition. As impressive as he may have looked, he just never really delivered when it all came down to it.
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Old 09-12-2007, 03:15 AM   #5
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon
am i missing something or is Cleveland Williams overated? folley, machen, terrell, doug jones, chuvalo, cleroux seem to be rated lower, why?
Put it this way.

Either he is over rated or you are missing something along with the rest of us.

There are fighters such as George Godfrey and Williams whose resumes do not match the esteem they were held in in their own time. Vitally Klitschko will doubtless be another.

It cannot be discounted however in any of these cases that there really is something that we are missing.
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

He probably is a little overated. Men who can punch as hard as him often are by boxing fans.
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Yes, I personally think Williams is very overrated, thanks to the sort of mystique he gives off thanks to his imposing appearance, tales of having been ducked by elite opponents, and perceived status as a rival of Sonny Liston. In spite of having those things, Williams' career frankly lacks substance compared with many other heavyweight contenders'. He defeated exactly one top 10 opponent in his entire near-100-pro-fight career- Terrell in the first fight-, and came up short every other time he stepped up against elite opposition. As impressive as he may have looked, he just never really delivered when it all came down to it.

This is one way to look at it. Williams had a lot of heart and a very fan friendly style. He was a big puncher who had the mis-forutne of being at his best when Liston was also at his best, and being at his worst when Ali was at his best. Williams was avoided by Patterson for a title shot. Williams vs Patterson could have go either way. I tend to view Williams as an unlucky top contender who got his biggest fights at the absolute worst time for him. Who else could beat a prime Liston, and a prime Ali?

Your point about Williams not facing other contenders is valid. However I believe its a two way street as the Tommy Jacksons, and Roy Harris of boxing were not so eager to meet Cleveland Williams. They didn't have to to get title shots from Patterson.
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

Hes overrated, hes hyped up that Listons legacy looks better, but in reality his best results were a draw against Machen, not very impressive if you ask me...
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:14 AM   #9
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

Makes me think sort of like Razor Ruddock. Some formidable talent but not a whole lot of good wins. Ruddock did make a name beating up aged fighters and is most well known for his losses to a modern Sonny Liston.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:22 AM   #10
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

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Originally Posted by hobgoblin
Makes me think sort of like Razor Ruddock. Some formidable talent but not a whole lot of good wins. Ruddock did make a name beating up aged fighters and is most well known for his losses to a modern Sonny Liston.

Who do you mean with a modern Liston?
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:24 AM   #11
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
Who do you mean with a modern Liston?
Williams is best known for his slugfest losses to Liston

Ruddock is best known for his slugfest losses to Tyson

yes, if you're trying to contest me comparing liston and tyson and implying that they are similar as fighters - then you're right to do so. they were very different. but in a nutshell both were fearsome punchers.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:25 AM   #12
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

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Originally Posted by hobgoblin
Williams is best known for his slugfest losses to Liston

Ruddock is best known for his slugfest losses to Tyson

yes, if you're trying to contest me comparing liston and tyson and implying that they are similar as fighters - then you're right to do so. they were very different. but in a nutshell both were fearsome punchers.

Ah, OK, you meant it so... no, I like your comparison, its OK.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:02 AM   #13
ron u.k.
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

yet when you look at the 2 liston fights williams looks pretty good in there.he looked pretty loose and quite mobile for a man of that physique.he threw some great bombs in there which unfortunetly bounced of the granite chinned sonny,who basically walked through him.they were actually 2 great fights while they lasted.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:28 AM   #14
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

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Originally Posted by ron u.k.
yet when you look at the 2 liston fights williams looks pretty good in there.he looked pretty loose and quite mobile for a man of that physique.he threw some great bombs in there which unfortunetly bounced of the granite chinned sonny,who basically walked through him.they were actually 2 great fights while they lasted.
Well, to me the first fight was decent, but the second fight was a complete blowout. Liston figured Williams out and staightened Cleve out the second time.
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:45 PM   #15
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Default Re: overated cleveland williams

Quote:
Originally Posted by ron u.k.
yet when you look at the 2 liston fights williams looks pretty good in there.he looked pretty loose and quite mobile for a man of that physique.he threw some great bombs in there which unfortunetly bounced of the granite chinned sonny,who basically walked through him.they were actually 2 great fights while they lasted.
Cleveland Williams actually busted up Liston's nose and won the first round of the first fight. At the end of the round, Liston was bleeding. Of course Liston landed his hook in round two, and things went south for Cleveland.

Part of being a great figher is performing well in the ring. Who else would dare attack Liston in such a way?
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