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Old 09-02-2009, 04:24 PM   #46
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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Originally Posted by El Cepillo View Post
No. He didn't. Dropping 4 rounds to Hamed doesn't equate to a "an absolute schooling". A schooling is Calzaghe/Lacy or Pavlik/Hopkins, where the opponent is lucky to win one minute of one round.

Hamed/Barrera was a clear and comfortable win for Barrera, nothing more than that. I don't know why people feel the need to jump on the "Barrera schooled Hamed" bandwagon that was started by the Americans.
the only rounds hamed won were because of Barrera's low workrate not because of hamed outboxing or outfighting but because of a slightly higher workrate , but Barrera easily won that fight Hamed could'nt do anything with Barrera anytime Hamed tryed something Barrera had an answer for and for those that say Hamed did'nt take a beating that a valid point because the fight was mainly a boxing match but if you look at the 11th and 12th rounds in paticularly Barrera was kicking his ass. Naz was totally outclased and out fought and anyone that thinks different is blind.

{just so you know I don't think Barrera beat a peak Naz, for me Naz was on the slide from 94 onwards, but at the end of the day in the fight that they fought Naz got his ass whupped , and Barrera deserves to be recognised as the better fighter, I bet Naz now wished that he had been a bit nicer to Brendan Ingle}
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:47 PM   #47
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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That fight wasnt even close, you can call it a clear and comfortable win, no problem with me. But, he stepped into the ring with an elite fighter and got schooled, my opinion. It is clear from reading your posts that you are a big Hamed fan, I noticed on the thread in the general forum that this was your saddest boxing experience. Although I still wanted Hamed to win, I didnt feel too bad about it in the end, as he lost to a truly elite fighter and towards the end I didnt like the Hamed carried himself.
Yeah, I'm a big Hamed fan, but if he got schooled by Barrera, I would just say "he got schooled by Barrera".

Like I said, a schooling, to me, is a fight where one guy struggles to take a round, not one where he takes four!

Lacy-Calzaghe, Hopkins-Trinidad, Hopkins-Pavlik, Winky-Trinidad....all good examples of a schooling.

Hamed-Barrera is more a Calzaghe-Kessler, or at worst a Khan-Kotelnik - would you describe those fights schoolings as well?

It was a sad moment for me, I wouldn't watch the fight again, not because Hamed lost, but because it brought about the end of his career. I always felt Hamed could perform at the elite level, sure he would have lost a few, but he would have won some as well.
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:54 PM   #48
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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the only rounds hamed won were because of Barrera's low workrate not because of hamed outboxing or outfighting but because of a slightly higher workrate , but Barrera easily won that fight Hamed could'nt do anything with Barrera anytime Hamed tryed something Barrera had an answer for and for those that say Hamed did'nt take a beating that a valid point because the fight was mainly a boxing match but if you look at the 11th and 12th rounds in paticularly Barrera was kicking his ass. Naz was totally outclased and out fought and anyone that thinks different is blind.

{just so you know I don't think Barrera beat a peak Naz, for me Naz was on the slide from 94 onwards, but at the end of the day in the fight that they fought Naz got his ass whupped , and Barrera deserves to be recognised as the better fighter, I bet Naz now wished that he had been a bit nicer to Brendan Ingle}
Schoolings:

Winky-Trinidad: 117-120, 108-119, 108-119.

Hopkins-Pavlik: 117-109, 119-106, 118-108.

Calzaghe-Lacy: 119-105, 119-107, 119-107.

Not a Schooling:

Hamed-Barrera: 111-116, 112-115, 112-115.
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:56 PM   #49
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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Yeah, I'm a big Hamed fan, but if he got schooled by Barrera, I would just say "he got schooled by Barrera".

Like I said, a schooling, to me, is a fight where one guy struggles to take a round, not one where he takes four!

Lacy-Calzaghe, Hopkins-Trinidad, Hopkins-Pavlik, Winky-Trinidad....all good examples of a schooling.

Hamed-Barrera is more a Calzaghe-Kessler, or at worst a Khan-Kotelnik - would you describe those fights schoolings as well?

It was a sad moment for me, I wouldn't watch the fight again, not because Hamed lost, but because it brought about the end of his career. I always felt Hamed could perform at the elite level, sure he would have lost a few, but he would have won some as well.
I will tell you what, I am going to re-watch that fight now and I will get back to you, but my abiding memory of that fight was Hamed was completely dominated and out of his depth aka schooled. Calzaghe didnt school Kessler and Khan didnt school Kotelnik.
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:05 PM   #50
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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I will tell you what, I am going to re-watch that fight now and I will get back to you, but my abiding memory of that fight was Hamed was completely dominated and out of his depth aka schooled. Calzaghe didnt school Kessler and Khan didnt school Kotelnik.
How can you justify calling Hamed-Barrera a "schooling", if you don't think Khan-Kotelinik was?

Just to refresh your memory, the Khan-Kotelnik cards were 120-108, 118-111 (twice)

Hamed-Barrera was 111-116, 112-115 (twice)

Your definition of a schooling seems very inconsistent.

I'm not trying to be an arse, btw, just happens when I talk about certain subjects
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:36 PM   #51
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

It was a clear victory rather than a schooling imo, although is there really set definitions of these things?
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:37 PM   #52
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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Originally Posted by El Cepillo View Post
Schoolings:

Winky-Trinidad: 117-120, 108-119, 108-119.

Hopkins-Pavlik: 117-109, 119-106, 118-108.

Calzaghe-Lacy: 119-105, 119-107, 119-107.

Not a Schooling:

Hamed-Barrera: 111-116, 112-115, 112-115.
listen I watched that fight 2 nights ago and let me tell you that was no 112 - 115 fight it was more like 9 Rds to 3 Rds and as I said before the only reason Hamed would of won them rounds was because of Barrera's inactivity not because of Hamed's offence and you can't tell me he did'nt give a beating to Naz in the last 2 rounds especially round 12, and this is coming from a Hamed fan {as a fighter and showman , not as a person because he was horrible} never mind the false scores he got humilated and dominated.
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:35 PM   #53
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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Originally Posted by El Cepillo View Post
How can you justify calling Hamed-Barrera a "schooling", if you don't think Khan-Kotelinik was?

Just to refresh your memory, the Khan-Kotelnik cards were 120-108, 118-111 (twice)

Hamed-Barrera was 111-116, 112-115 (twice)

Your definition of a schooling seems very inconsistent.

I'm not trying to be an arse, btw, just happens when I talk about certain subjects
Man, don't talk nonsense, khan just went in and out all night with Kotelnk, he was quicker and won convincingly but do you think he lost 120-108?? We all know about the scoring in some of these fights and how ****ed up it is. If you want to talk more about that scoring, start another thread and we can take it there.

Back on our little discussion on the Hamed-Barrera fight. I just re-watched it.

Firstly, a bit of context. 28 out of 30 boxing writers picked Hamed to win beforehand. Hamed was a 3 1/2 - 1 favourite by the bookies. Barrera was a BIG underdog going into this.

After the first 6 rounds, Hamed was losing by 4-2 easy (Hamed clearly won round 2 and possibly round 3 due to Barrera inactivity more than anything). After 12 rounds, Hamed had only won the 10th. The 12th round was only a draw because Barrera was deducted a point.

Hence, Hamed won 3 rounds, Barrera won 8 rounds and 1 round was even*

*Barrera actually totally dominated the 12th, it was his best round, he threw landed 33 out of 66, Hamed landed 7 out of 20.

Now onto, the disputed term of 'schooling'. Did Hamed get schooled in this fight? I have to say that he did get schooled, emphatically so. He was totally outboxed.

Hamed, for most of the fight threw single shots, that is the style that Hamed improvised all through his career. It worked because of his speed and power. But, he was in with an elite fighter in Barrera. Hamed's single shot style was exposed by Barrera's superior boxing intellect, quick footwork and brilliant array of shots - not just his hallmark left hooks.

A theme for the entire fight was for Barrera to simply wait for Hamed to lunge forward with his single shots and then to quickly avoid them by taking a step back, invariably Hamed was off-balance when he missed, thus, Barrera easily picked him off with devastating combos. Although Barrera scored heavily all night with this effective counter punching, he also showcased his full arsenal of shots.

Barrera ensured that he added effective counter punching by taking the initiative himself with stinging accurate jabs, combos to the body and head. This was effective because they were quick and accurate shots and Barrera had such great footwork, he just took a quick step forward to land his shots and he danced out again or to the left. When he was against the ropes or in the corner he evaded Hamed by ducking his shots and connecting with great combos to the body and then quickly stepped away from the ropes. The only rounds that Barerra lost were because he did not do enough work, rather than Hamed really effectively imposing his style on Barrera.

There was very little inside fighting, but when it did occur it was very telling indeed. I recall in round 6, Barrera and Hamed were holding each other and Hamed partly-landed a sneaky blow to the back of Barerra's head. Barrera immediately responded by shrugging off Hamed and hitting him with a clean hook to the head and followed that with a knowing smile and nod to Hamed.
Similar, superior inside fighting by Barrera was evident in rounds 9 and 11.

Overall, Hamed relied on taking out Barrera with a single shot. Against elite fighters like Barrera you cannot expect to just walk in there and hope to KO a guy of that quality with single shots. There has got to be a plan B. In this fight there was NO plan B. And, Barrera easily dealt with anything that Hamed threw at him, both on the outside and inside. Hamed did actually land a big power shot in the 10th but it simply didnt faze Barrera.

Barrera tagged Hamed all night with powerful counter combos to the head and body and outboxed Hamed with jabs and combos. His footwork, timing and boxing intellect ensuring that he easily dealt with Hamed. Alas, Hamad got took to school. Thank you.
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:13 PM   #54
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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Man, don't talk nonsense, khan just went in and out all night with Kotelnk, he was quicker and won convincingly but do you think he lost 120-108?? We all know about the scoring in some of these fights and how ****ed up it is. If you want to talk more about that scoring, start another thread and we can take it there.

Back on our little discussion on the Hamed-Barrera fight. I just re-watched it.

Firstly, a bit of context. 28 out of 30 boxing writers picked Hamed to win beforehand. Hamed was a 3 1/2 - 1 favourite by the bookies. Barrera was a BIG underdog going into this.

After the first 6 rounds, Hamed was losing by 4-2 easy (Hamed clearly won round 2 and possibly round 3 due to Barrera inactivity more than anything). After 12 rounds, Hamed had only won the 10th. The 12th round was only a draw because Barrera was deducted a point.

Hence, Hamed won 3 rounds, Barrera won 8 rounds and 1 round was even*

*Barrera actually totally dominated the 12th, it was his best round, he threw landed 33 out of 66, Hamed landed 7 out of 20.

Now onto, the disputed term of 'schooling'. Did Hamed get schooled in this fight? I have to say that he did get schooled, emphatically so. He was totally outboxed.

Hamed, for most of the fight threw single shots, that is the style that Hamed improvised all through his career. It worked because of his speed and power. But, he was in with an elite fighter in Barrera. Hamed's single shot style was exposed by Barrera's superior boxing intellect, quick footwork and brilliant array of shots - not just his hallmark left hooks.

A theme for the entire fight was for Barrera to simply wait for Hamed to lunge forward with his single shots and then to quickly avoid them by taking a step back, invariably Hamed was off-balance when he missed, thus, Barrera easily picked him off with devastating combos. Although Barrera scored heavily all night with this effective counter punching, he also showcased his full arsenal of shots.

Barrera ensured that he added effective counter punching by taking the initiative himself with stinging accurate jabs, combos to the body and head. This was effective because they were quick and accurate shots and Barrera had such great footwork, he just took a quick step forward to land his shots and he danced out again or to the left. When he was against the ropes or in the corner he evaded Hamed by ducking his shots and connecting with great combos to the body and then quickly stepped away from the ropes. The only rounds that Barerra lost were because he did not do enough work, rather than Hamed really effectively imposing his style on Barrera.

There was very little inside fighting, but when it did occur it was very telling indeed. I recall in round 6, Barrera and Hamed were holding each other and Hamed partly-landed a sneaky blow to the back of Barerra's head. Barrera immediately responded by shrugging off Hamed and hitting him with a clean hook to the head and followed that with a knowing smile and nod to Hamed.
Similar, superior inside fighting by Barrera was evident in rounds 9 and 11.

Overall, Hamed relied on taking out Barrera with a single shot. Against elite fighters like Barrera you cannot expect to just walk in there and hope to KO a guy of that quality with single shots. There has got to be a plan B. In this fight there was NO plan B. And, Barrera easily dealt with anything that Hamed threw at him, both on the outside and inside. Hamed did actually land a big power shot in the 10th but it simply didnt faze Barrera.

Barrera tagged Hamed all night with powerful counter combos to the head and body and outboxed Hamed with jabs and combos. His footwork, timing and boxing intellect ensuring that he easily dealt with Hamed. Alas, Hamad got took to school. Thank you.
everything he said is the truth, Hamed did get humiliated
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:45 AM   #55
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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listen I watched that fight 2 nights ago and let me tell you that was no 112 - 115 fight it was more like 9 Rds to 3 Rds and as I said before the only reason Hamed would of won them rounds was because of Barrera's inactivity not because of Hamed's offence and you can't tell me he did'nt give a beating to Naz in the last 2 rounds especially round 12, and this is coming from a Hamed fan {as a fighter and showman , not as a person because he was horrible} never mind the false scores he got humilated and dominated.
yeah he was well beaten.

naz just about won 2 of his rds as well.

rd 10 was about his only dominant rd.

even rd 7 was debateable cos barrera tagged him with some good uns.

last 2 rds when barrera put the pressure on naz was reduced to running.
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Old 09-03-2009, 10:51 AM   #56
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It was a clear victory rather than a schooling imo, although is there really set definitions of these things?
No, but there is a accepted body of opinion that regards fights like Lacy/Calzaghe, Pavlik/Hopkins, Trinidad/Wright as "schoolings".

To lump Hamed/Barrera in with those fights, is just retarded, IMO.
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:24 AM   #57
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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Man, don't talk nonsense, khan just went in and out all night with Kotelnk, he was quicker and won convincingly but do you think he lost 120-108?? We all know about the scoring in some of these fights and how ****ed up it is. If you want to talk more about that scoring, start another thread and we can take it there.

Back on our little discussion on the Hamed-Barrera fight. I just re-watched it.

Firstly, a bit of context. 28 out of 30 boxing writers picked Hamed to win beforehand. Hamed was a 3 1/2 - 1 favourite by the bookies. Barrera was a BIG underdog going into this.

After the first 6 rounds, Hamed was losing by 4-2 easy (Hamed clearly won round 2 and possibly round 3 due to Barrera inactivity more than anything). After 12 rounds, Hamed had only won the 10th. The 12th round was only a draw because Barrera was deducted a point.

Hence, Hamed won 3 rounds, Barrera won 8 rounds and 1 round was even*

*Barrera actually totally dominated the 12th, it was his best round, he threw landed 33 out of 66, Hamed landed 7 out of 20.

Now onto, the disputed term of 'schooling'. Did Hamed get schooled in this fight? I have to say that he did get schooled, emphatically so. He was totally outboxed.

Hamed, for most of the fight threw single shots, that is the style that Hamed improvised all through his career. It worked because of his speed and power. But, he was in with an elite fighter in Barrera. Hamed's single shot style was exposed by Barrera's superior boxing intellect, quick footwork and brilliant array of shots - not just his hallmark left hooks.

A theme for the entire fight was for Barrera to simply wait for Hamed to lunge forward with his single shots and then to quickly avoid them by taking a step back, invariably Hamed was off-balance when he missed, thus, Barrera easily picked him off with devastating combos. Although Barrera scored heavily all night with this effective counter punching, he also showcased his full arsenal of shots.

Barrera ensured that he added effective counter punching by taking the initiative himself with stinging accurate jabs, combos to the body and head. This was effective because they were quick and accurate shots and Barrera had such great footwork, he just took a quick step forward to land his shots and he danced out again or to the left. When he was against the ropes or in the corner he evaded Hamed by ducking his shots and connecting with great combos to the body and then quickly stepped away from the ropes. The only rounds that Barerra lost were because he did not do enough work, rather than Hamed really effectively imposing his style on Barrera.

There was very little inside fighting, but when it did occur it was very telling indeed. I recall in round 6, Barrera and Hamed were holding each other and Hamed partly-landed a sneaky blow to the back of Barerra's head. Barrera immediately responded by shrugging off Hamed and hitting him with a clean hook to the head and followed that with a knowing smile and nod to Hamed.
Similar, superior inside fighting by Barrera was evident in rounds 9 and 11.

Overall, Hamed relied on taking out Barrera with a single shot. Against elite fighters like Barrera you cannot expect to just walk in there and hope to KO a guy of that quality with single shots. There has got to be a plan B. In this fight there was NO plan B. And, Barrera easily dealt with anything that Hamed threw at him, both on the outside and inside. Hamed did actually land a big power shot in the 10th but it simply didnt faze Barrera.

Barrera tagged Hamed all night with powerful counter combos to the head and body and outboxed Hamed with jabs and combos. His footwork, timing and boxing intellect ensuring that he easily dealt with Hamed. Alas, Hamad got took to school. Thank you.
Being in there with a prime version of an ATG, getting comfortably beaten and outclassed is one thing, getting schooled is a different thing entirely, IMO. Fighters who are "being taken to school", don't generally win four rounds.

I think describing Hamed/Barrera as a schooling is a detriment to legitimate schooling's like Pavlik/Hopkins or Calzaghe/Lacy, where the opponent struggles to win one minute of one round. Fights in which the opponent is so inept and clueless that it becomes entirely un-competitive.

Did you honestly watch Lacy/Calzaghe or Hopkins/Pavlik and think 'any minute now, Lacy is going to land one clean shot and KO Joe!', or 'If Pavlik just ups his work rate and knocks B-Hop out of his rhythm, this could become competitive'.

I sincrely doubt that on the night, during the fight, anyone was ruling Hamed out. Hamed was never more than a few rounds down. The gap between the two fighters was never insurmountable.

There was always the chance that one of Hamed's shots would have landed clean and KO'd Barrera. Or that Barrera would take his foot off the gas and Hamed would capitalise.

I don't think Barrera's ingenious masterplan of circling left all night long, should be considered in the same category as the totally dominant boxing masterclass that Hopkins gave Pavlik, or the embarassing beat-down Calzaghe bestowed upon Lacy.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:57 PM   #58
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Default Re: Naseem Hamed

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Being in there with a prime version of an ATG, getting comfortably beaten and outclassed is one thing, getting schooled is a different thing entirely, IMO. Fighters who are "being taken to school", don't generally win four rounds.

I think describing Hamed/Barrera as a schooling is a detriment to legitimate schooling's like Pavlik/Hopkins or Calzaghe/Lacy, where the opponent struggles to win one minute of one round. Fights in which the opponent is so inept and clueless that it becomes entirely un-competitive.

Did you honestly watch Lacy/Calzaghe or Hopkins/Pavlik and think 'any minute now, Lacy is going to land one clean shot and KO Joe!', or 'If Pavlik just ups his work rate and knocks B-Hop out of his rhythm, this could become competitive'.

I sincrely doubt that on the night, during the fight, anyone was ruling Hamed out. Hamed was never more than a few rounds down. The gap between the two fighters was never insurmountable.

There was always the chance that one of Hamed's shots would have landed clean and KO'd Barrera. Or that Barrera would take his foot off the gas and Hamed would capitalise.

I don't think Barrera's ingenious masterplan of circling left all night long, should be considered in the same category as the totally dominant boxing masterclass that Hopkins gave Pavlik, or the embarassing beat-down Calzaghe bestowed upon Lacy.
I think you need to watch the fight again and also listen into Hamed corner I hear what manny stewart was telling him from round 4. Barrera was unstoppable that night, Hamed never looked like troubling him at all.

Lacy/Calzaghe & Hopkins/Paviik are different fights, absolute shut-outs. I think it boils down to what one defines as a schooling. I have articulated in my above post how I believe Barrera schooled Hamed. He picked apart Hamed style and imposed in own style on Hamed, it was simply a boxing masterclass.
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:03 PM   #59
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Manny Steward in the corner was not an accurate guage of the fight, he was negative and defeatist from round 1, and his only advice to naz seemed to be

'completely change the style youve had since you were 6 in the middle of this fight'

great help

also seemed delighted by the result at the end

Not blaming the loss on him im not sure it would have made much difference had someone else been there just saying I did find his behaviour a bit odd when I watched it the other day.
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