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Old 06-19-2015, 02:13 AM   #1
SuzieQ49
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Default Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Based on head to head ability

1. Sonny Liston
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Cassius Clay
4. Ingemar Johansson
5. Archie Moore
6. Harold Johnson
7. Zora Folley
8. Eddie Machen
9. Cleveland Williams
10. Henry Cooper
11. Nino Valdes
12. Mike Dejohn
13. Bob Cleroux
14. Alex Miteff
15. Doug Jones
16. Roy Harris
17. Hurricane Jackson
18. Willie Pastrano
19. Alejandro Lavorante
20. Brian London
21. Alonzo Johnson
22. Johnny Summerlin
23. Joe Erskine
24. Billy Daniels
25. Charlie Powell

Hm: Pat McMutry, George Chuavlo dikk Richardson

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Old 06-19-2015, 09:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

You might want move Billy Daniels up a bit. He defeated Mike Dejohn ( #12 ), and lost to Clay on cuts in 7. While Daniels was down on points, he did hurt Clay with right hands, not one but twice. If not for the cut, who knows!

Anyway Daniels was decent enough from 1960-1962

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Old 06-19-2015, 02:00 PM   #3
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Good shout
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Old 06-20-2015, 05:03 PM   #4
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

I'm curious to hear Edwards opinion
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:59 PM   #6
edward morbius
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Based on head to head ability

1. Sonny Liston
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Cassius Clay
4. Ingemar Johansson
5. Archie Moore
6. Harold Johnson
7. Zora Folley
8. Eddie Machen
9. Cleveland Williams
10. Henry Cooper
11. Nino Valdes
12. Mike Dejohn
13. Bob Cleroux
14. Alex Miteff
15. Doug Jones
16. Roy Harris
17. Hurricane Jackson
18. Willie Pastrano
19. Alejandro Lavorante
20. Brian London
21. Alonzo Johnson
22. Johnny Summerlin
23. Joe Erskine
24. Billy Daniels
25. Charlie Powell

Hm: Pat McMutry, George Chuavlo dikk Richardson
Well, it gets really tough after place 20 or so, as there is a whole bunch of guys who had a win or two over second-tier guys and then lost a whole bunch as opponents,

but here goes--I would rate the same top ten, then

11-----Bob Cleroux
12-----Roy Harris
13-----Willie Pastrano (beat 13 heavyweights rated one time or another by The Ring, and this doesn't include Harold Johnson)
14-----Doug Jones (behind Pastrano as he lost to Johnson)
15-----Alejandro Lavorante (big KO of Folley)
16-----Mike DeJohn
17-----Alex Miteff
18-----Charlie Powell (big KO of Valdes)
19-----Nino Valdes (best wins in previous era)
20-----Harold Carter
21-----Hurricane Jackson (didn't do much outside of narrow wins over Baker during this time period)
22-----Bob Baker (still had enough left to edge Holman & Chuvalo)
23-----Wayne Bethea (close losses to Valdes & Folley keep him from higher position, but beat old Charles & young Terrell, and ruined big prospect Franco De Piccoli)
24-----Alonzo Johnson (big wins over Valdes & Pastrano, then zilch)
25-----Willi Besmanoff (fought almost all the toughies, and so lost a lot, but also beat Baker, McMurtry, DeJohn, Miteff, and gave Moore and Liston tough fights)

Why not?

Chuvalo--lost too often in this period, came on later.
Daniels--had only a few good fights before becoming a low-level loser opponent.
Erskine & London--Other than Pastrano, not much to get excited about in this period, and I think Willie was probably just doing too much partying)
Franco Cavicchi--looks good on film, but didn't beat anybody to prove anything
Joe Bygraves--quickly faded into opponent status, but bounced back here or there to ruin a prospect.
Pat McMurtry--looked okay against Chuvalo, and beat old Charles, but lost badly to Pastrano, Valdes, and Machen.
Howard King--another Besmanoff, but not quite as good.

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Old 06-20-2015, 11:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

I will respond more later but I strong disagree with your ratings of Pastrano and Valdes

1. Valdes went 2-0 vs mike Dejohn yet you have Dejohn two spots higher?
2. Pastranos victory over Harold Johnson does not count. My specific dates were 1956-1962. Pastrano had not beaten Johnson yet
3. Pastrano beat 13 guys but how many of those guys were top 10 when Pastrano beat them?
4. How many heavyweights did Pastrano beat who were top 5 rated at the time of the victory?
5. Valdes from 1956-1962 beat 17 ring magazine top 10 contenders. Pastrano beat only 5
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Old 06-21-2015, 12:01 AM   #8
edward morbius
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
I will respond more later but I strong disagree with your ratings of Pastrano and Valdes

1. Valdes went 2-0 vs mike Dejohn yet you have Dejohn two spots higher?
2. Pastranos victory over Harold Johnson does not count. My specific dates were 1956-1962. Pastrano had not beaten Johnson yet
3. Pastrano beat 13 guys but how many of those guys were top 10 when Pastrano beat them?
4. How many heavyweights did Pastrano beat who were top 5 rated at the time of the victory?
5. Valdes from 1956-1962 beat 17 ring magazine top 10 contenders. Pastrano beat only 5
"Valdes went 2-0 vs Mike DeJohn yet you have DeJohn two spots higher?"

I thought a lot about DeJohn and Valdes. Valdes won two split decisions from DeJohn. DeJohn KO'd Miteff and Powell each in one. Miteff and Powell beat Valdes, Powell by a decisive KO. This is the sort of thing which leads to disagreements.

"Valdes from 1956-1962 beat 17 ring magazine top 10 contenders"

His whole record after 1956 was 15-7,

and you might know more than me about these monthly ratings, but it is hard to believe Ken Hammer, Bob Woodall, Hans Friedrich, Jeff Dyer, or Dan Hodge were ever rated,

or that Richardson and Holman were rated when Valdes fought them,

Summerlin fell out of the ratings with three losses in 1956. Why his four wins over prelim boys in 1958 would have earned him a rating also eludes me.

So it comes down to DeJohn (2), Bethea, Carter, McMurtry, London, and Erskine = at least possibly.

I think Valdes beat 9 who were ever rated between 1956 and his retirement.

"Pastrano hadn't beaten Johnson yet."

True.

Pastrano as far as I can tell beat 10 ever rated heavyweights between 1956 and 1962. I can't tell how many were rated when he fought them. Only Holman I think was ever top five.

On the other hand, how many of Valdes' victims from 1956 on were ever rated top five. Carter had been (not when they fought I think)
and McMurtry.

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Old 06-21-2015, 12:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Quote:
Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
"Valdes went 2-0 vs Mike DeJohn yet you have DeJohn two spots higher?"

I thought a lot about DeJohn and Valdes. Valdes won two split decisions from DeJohn. DeJohn KO'd Miteff and Powell each in one. Miteff and Powell beat Valdes, Powell by a decisive KO. This is the sort of thing which leads to all sorts of disagreements.

"Valdes from 1956-1962 beat 17 ring magazine top 10 contenders"

His whole record after 1956 was 14-7,

and you might know more than me about these monthly ratings, but it is hard to believe Ken Hammer, Bob Woodall, Hans Friedrich, Jeff Dyer, or Dan Hodge were ever rated,

or that Richardson and Holman were rated when Valdes fought them,

Summerlin fell out of the ratings with three losses in 1956. Why his four wins over prelim boys in 1958 would have earned him a rating also eludes me.

So it comes down to DeJohn (2), Bethea, Carter, McMurtry, and London, Erskine = at least possibly.
Let's take a look from 1954-1962 How many top 10 heavyweights Valdes and Pastrano beat. The names Valdes beat are in the Red, the names Pastrano beat are Green. Blue means both beat them.

1954

Rocky Marciano, Champion

Nino Valdes
Don ****ell

Ezzard Charles

Bob Baker
Earl Walls
Heinz Neuhaus

Rex Layne
Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson

Charley Norkus
Jimmy Slade


1955

Rocky Marciano, Champion

Archie Moore
Bob Baker
Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson

John Holman

Willie Pastrano
Nino Valdes
Johnny Summerlin
Bob Satterfield
Young Jack Johnson
Ezzard Charles


1956
Floyd Patterson, Champion

Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
Archie Moore
Harold Carter

Willie Pastrano
Eddie Machen
Bob Satterfield
Ingemar Johansson
Bob Baker
Zora Folley
Wayne Bethea

1957

Floyd Patterson, Champion

Eddie Machen
Zora Folley
Willie Pastrano
Roy Harris
Pat McMurtry

Nino Valdes
Mike DeJohn
Wayne Bethea
Alex Miteff
Ingemar Johansson

1958

Floyd Patterson, Champion

Ingemar Johansson
Nino Valdes
Zora Folley
Henry Cooper
Willie Pastrano
Archie Moore
Eddie Machen
Brian London

Sonny Liston
Mike DeJohn


1959

Ingemar Johansson, Champion

Zora Folley
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Henry Cooper
Eddie Machen
Billy Hunter
Roy Harris
Mike DeJohn
Joe Erskine

Alex Miteff

1960


Sonny Liston
Ingemar Johansson
Eddie Machen
Zora Folley
Henry Cooper
Mike DeJohn
Robert Cleroux
Alex Miteff
dikk Richardson
Joe Erskine


1961-1962 neither man had any


For total Victories over Ring Magazine top 10 during this period

Nino Valdes: 21. Willie Pastrano: 3



Looks like Nino Valdes was far more accomplished during this period, and fought much better competition and much bigger punchers.

The bigger question is what did Willie Pastrano do to earn a top 5 ranking from 1955-1958? Edward come on look at the above stats, pastrano beat NO ONE to earn that high of a ranking
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Old 06-21-2015, 12:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

...

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Old 06-21-2015, 02:15 AM   #11
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Quote:
Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
Pastrano as far as I can tell beat 10 ever rated heavyweights between 1956 and 1962. I can't tell how many were rated when he fought them. Only Holman I think was ever top five.

On the other hand, how many of Valdes' victims from 1956 on were ever rated top five. Carter had been (not when they fought I think)
and McMurtry.
Good points about Dejohn, you still have to take into consideration Valdes didn't achieve just one but two victories over Dejohn. You also have to take into consider the Powell-Valdes fought took place in 1959 when valdes was 34 years old was clearly a bit more faded than a few years earlier.

Here are rankings for the men Pastrano beat

John Holman 8th
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Rex Layne
Unrated
Good reports for Willie though
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Pat McMurtry
Unrated
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Dikk Richardson
Unrated
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Willie Besmanoff
Unrated
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Brian London
Unrated
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Alonzo Johnson rematch
Unrated
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Willie Pastrano vs. Alonzo Johnson (2nd meeting)
F26962.jpeg

1960-05-06 : Willie Pastrano 178 lbs beat Alonzo Johnson 188 lbs by UD in round 10 of 10
Location: Fairgrounds Coliseum, Louisville, Kentucky, USA

"Willie Pastrano, who has fought his way to No. 3 ranking light heavyweight contender after an unfruitful excursion as a heavyweight, had no trouble reversing an upset Alonzo Johnson scored over him in the same ring last July. Johnson, ten pounds heavier than Pastrano at 188, tried the same body-pounding attack that worked for him 10 months ago, and succeeded to a small degree in the early going. Pastrano was much faster this time out and soon found he could score with left jabs and hooks over Johnson's hooks to the body. In the 8th round he opened a small cut over Johnson's left eye." -United Press International
Scorecards (all for Pastrano)
Referee Don Asbury - 50-46
Judge Walter Beck - 48-45
Judge Walter Buchrop - 48-43
Unofficial AP (the UPI did not announce a score) scorecard - 48-44 Pastrano

Post fight commnets

"Boy, you should remain a light heavy." -Alonzo Johnson to Pastrano



Edward,

Willie Pastrano defeated just ONE heavyweight who was rated in the top 10 at the time he fought pastrano.

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Old 06-21-2015, 02:59 AM   #12
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

So pastrano beat just one man who was rated top 10 in the heavyweight division at the time of the fight.

How many do you think Valdes beat? I would guess at least 10 victories over men who were top 10 heavyweights at the time of he fight
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Old 06-21-2015, 01:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

"Willie Pastrano defeated just ONE heavyweight who was rated in the top 10 at the time he fought Pastrano."

???? I know he was sort of a split personality, but being both sides of a boxing match is certainly carrying the Jekyll-Hyde stuff to an extreme.

"So Pastrano beat just one man who was rated top 10 in the heavyweight division at the time of the fight."

I guess you must mean Harris. (stats here from the Boxing Register)

This doesn't really mean as much as you seem to be drawing from it. Johansson had only fought one rated contender, Machen, at the time of earning the #1 rating and fighting for and winning the title. Basilio had beaten only one rated contender (Graham) before fighting Gavilan for the title. Fighting Harada had fought no rated fighters at all when he beat the great Eder Jofre for the bantamweight title. Max Schmeling had only beaten two rated fighters before he won the title. Even Sonny Liston had only beaten two rated fighters according to the Boxing Register when he fought Harris.

Valdes earned a #1 ranking with victories over only two rated heavyweights-Charles and Neuhaus.

Thanks for the newspaper reports. They were interesting reading. They seem to show that prior to the 2nd London fight Pastrano was looking pretty good.

Was Machen rated the first time he fought Valdes? I doubt it. It didn't stop him from beating him. Was Satterfield rated when he beat Valdes? I doubt it. He still won. Was Folley? I doubt it. He still won. Was Powell? I doubt it. He still won. Was Alonzo Johnson? I doubt it. He still won.

First place, for the most part we only have the yearly ratings which are simply the ratings for December of that year. Who was in or out of the ratings each month isn't easy to find out. Also, unless you are talking a guy being rated years earlier or later, I think ever rated is just as good as being rated when you fought them. For example if A is only rated in July, and B fights him in July, is he a better fighter than C who was rated for several months that year but not in the month that B fights him? I think that would be carrying a rating ****ysis over the edge.

These rating stats give a rough view of a guy's career and can be useful if handled with reasonable perspective.
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Old 06-21-2015, 01:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Let's take a look from 1954-1962 How many top 10 heavyweights Valdes and Pastrano beat. The names Valdes beat are in the Red, the names Pastrano beat are Green. Blue means both beat them.

1954

Rocky Marciano, Champion

Nino Valdes
Don ****ell

Ezzard Charles

Bob Baker
Earl Walls
Heinz Neuhaus

Rex Layne
Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson

Charley Norkus
Jimmy Slade


1955

Rocky Marciano, Champion

Archie Moore
Bob Baker
Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson

John Holman
Willie Pastrano
Nino Valdes
Johnny Summerlin
Bob Satterfield
Young Jack Johnson
Ezzard Charles


1956
Floyd Patterson, Champion

Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson
Archie Moore
Harold Carter

Willie Pastrano
Eddie Machen
Bob Satterfield
Ingemar Johansson
Bob Baker
Zora Folley
Wayne Bethea

1957

Floyd Patterson, Champion

Eddie Machen
Zora Folley
Willie Pastrano
Roy Harris
Pat McMurtry

Nino Valdes
Mike DeJohn
Wayne Bethea
Alex Miteff
Ingemar Johansson

1958

Floyd Patterson, Champion

Ingemar Johansson
Nino Valdes
Zora Folley
Henry Cooper
Willie Pastrano
Archie Moore
Eddie Machen
Brian London

Sonny Liston
Mike DeJohn


1959

Ingemar Johansson, Champion

Zora Folley
Floyd Patterson
Sonny Liston
Henry Cooper
Eddie Machen
Billy Hunter
Roy Harris
Mike DeJohn
Joe Erskine

Alex Miteff

1960


Sonny Liston
Ingemar Johansson
Eddie Machen
Zora Folley
Henry Cooper
Mike DeJohn
Robert Cleroux
Alex Miteff
dikk Richardson
Joe Erskine


1961-1962 neither man had any


For total Victories over Ring Magazine top 10 during this period

Nino Valdes: 21. Willie Pastrano: 3



Looks like Nino Valdes was far more accomplished during this period, and fought much better competition and much bigger punchers.

The bigger question is what did Willie Pastrano do to earn a top 5 ranking from 1955-1958? Edward come on look at the above stats, pastrano beat NO ONE to earn that high of a ranking
these stats are a mile and a half off,

ever rated fighters Valdes ever beat as listed here

Ezzard Charles, Don Co-kell, Heinz Neuhaus, Hurricane Jackson, John Holman, Johnny Summerlin, Harold Carter, Wayne Bethea, Pat McMurtry, Mike DeJohn, Brian London, Joe Erskine, Di-k Richardson

That comes out to 13 fighters and 14 victories

ever rated fighters Pastrano beat during this period

Rex Layne, Charley Norkus, John Holman, Pat McMurtry, Brian London, D'ck Richardson

that comes out to 6 fighters and 6 victories.

But, and it's a big but, Pastrano defeated Joey Maxim in 1955. Maxim was rated at light-heavy, but weighed 183 for Pastrno. I don't find it surprising, which you seem to, that this victory would move Pastrano high into the ratings. Maxim during this period was the only man to hold a win over the incumbent heavyweight champion, Patterson.

And while Valdes jumped to #1 contender status following victories over Charles and Neuhaus in 1953, Pastrano was not jumped that high after victories over Maxim, Layne, McMurtry, and Holman.

Don't see what you are complaining about concerning these ratings.

You have to remember also that Pastrano had lost only to Harris after he was 18 until the London fight in late 1958. When he lost three in a row he dropped out of the ratings.

Last edited by edward morbius; 06-21-2015 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 06-21-2015, 02:29 PM   #15
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Default Re: Updated top 25 heavyweights head to head 1956-1962

Quote:
Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
"Valdes went 2-0 vs Mike DeJohn yet you have DeJohn two spots higher?"

I thought a lot about DeJohn and Valdes. Valdes won two split decisions from DeJohn. DeJohn KO'd Miteff and Powell each in one. Miteff and Powell beat Valdes, Powell by a decisive KO. This is the sort of thing which leads to disagreements.

"Valdes from 1956-1962 beat 17 ring magazine top 10 contenders"

His whole record after 1956 was 15-7,

and you might know more than me about these monthly ratings, but it is hard to believe Ken Hammer, Bob Woodall, Hans Friedrich, Jeff Dyer, or Dan Hodge were ever rated,

or that Richardson and Holman were rated when Valdes fought them,

Summerlin fell out of the ratings with three losses in 1956. Why his four wins over prelim boys in 1958 would have earned him a rating also eludes me.

So it comes down to DeJohn (2), Bethea, Carter, McMurtry, London, and Erskine = at least possibly.

I think Valdes beat 9 who were ever rated between 1956 and his retirement.

"Pastrano hadn't beaten Johnson yet."

True.

Pastrano as far as I can tell beat 10 ever rated heavyweights between 1956 and 1962. I can't tell how many were rated when he fought them. Only Holman I think was ever top five.

On the other hand, how many of Valdes' victims from 1956 on were ever rated top five. Carter had been (not when they fought I think)
and McMurtry.
I agree about Pastrano EM,....he did beat London in their first match, but was probably partying and chasing the broads too mush for the rematch. Willie's ideal division was 175, as he proved later...and remember, none of those heavyweights he fought could dent or find his chin....none could deck him.
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