Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Truth. Good call on Frazier, too. A little bit more sound, steady pressure, took a few less risks, bigger guy.

I'd probably pick Frazier too. I'd pick Ali, simply because of his speed, movement, and penchant for dragging out the worst in fighters. If Wlad has a panic button(We know he does), Muhammad Ali is gonna push it.

Thanks, I'd probably pick Ali too but I think it's genuinely difficult style matchup. Wlad is quite possibly the best HW out-fighter. Criticize his lack of punch variety or his lack of dimensions, but don't criticize his ability to control range and his jab & right hand. He's a better boxer than Lennox Lewis (Boxer, not fighter). Don't get me wrong, I can't pick him against Ali. It's almost sacrilegious, but Frazier may have better odds than Ali against Wlad. He might be a deservedly stronger favorite. It's all up to argument, though.

I think Wlad and Dempsey would end early, one way or another. Both could be hurt, and put down. Again, give me the bigger, straighter puncher in that one.

Dempsey has the firepower, but I don't give him that much more of a chance than Marciano. If any more. Williard gave up his range far far easier than Wlad would, and Williard doesn't have the speed nor agility of Wlad, and doesn't quite have the same octopus grapple on you when you get to close. Wlad's mastered that for whatever criticism he gets his way for it.

Tyson wrecks Wlad. I think Holyfield would be soundly outboxed as he had a habit of getting caught at the end of long punches, and that hurts me to say, he's one of my favorite fighters.

Me too. It hurts to me say that Holyfield-Wlad is probably no better than a 50/50 shot for Holyfield. That feels generous because Wlad has a good style for him I think.

[quote]Bowe and Lewis win because they'd fight inside, and have the strength and size to not get dominated physically and to get leverage, as well as avoid being leaned on or redirected with the left(Wlad's best trick that nobody talks about).

Definitely agree with that.

Yeah, I'd probably take Liston and Holmes, too. I don't think Wlad would adjust well to being outjabbed. I think he'd start overcommitting to his power shots, which would allow them to establish range to land their own stuff. I think Liston would be the easier assignment, though.

Interesting fights, I'd favor those guys naturally. I think big brother beats up on Liston though. Too ploddy.

I go back and for on Louis. I think Wlad has a ton of advantages, including styles, but Louis is such a compact, efficient puncher who can turn it over and on with so little, that I think one little opening, one lazy clinch, would be all he needed to put it away. Could he avoid getting pinned out on the jab and bombed out, though? His head movement wasn't great, and his left hand was lazy, which is the only bad habit I can think of the actively draws Wlad's right hand(The second Brock started shifting guard to search for bigger punches, he started getting blasted). Gun to my head, Louis, but I think it's an interesting fight.

Louis has much better chance than Liston. I feel very strongly on Louis beating Wlad. Surely Wlad could end it up with a nice right hand but Louis had all the tools to close the distance. Louis closed the distance brilliantly against Carnera and looked devastating against the bigger fighters he faced as well. Wlad can't not hold up to that sort of efficient, attacking mode/ability. He won't be pitching enough and he's going to give the ball up somewhere along the way and Louis is going to make him pay badly. That will drastically change the fight in my view. I just don't see Wlad controlling Louis at the end of his jab for the entire fight. I don't necessarily think Wlad has a style edge at all actually. I think he's made to order in a lot of ways for Louis, it's just that Wlad is so much physically bigger, and so capable from a distance with his jab & right hand which should naturally trouble a smaller stalking Louis for some time. But Louis could close the distance better than given credit against bigger fighters. Wlad likes to jump back from offense, and Louis would press Wlad enough to unhinge him from his comfort. The truth about the Haye-Wlad fight was Haye had his most successful moments when he created the initiative offensively, like in the 12th round. The truth is Louis is a killer with the offensive initiative.

Think Old George beats Wlad, too, in a pure stylistic and mental thing. So much pressure, so much heat, so much strength, such painful punches. George on the attack is a fearsome thing, it's very hard to resist. He's like the immovable object, you've got to box around him. Wlad has shown in the Thompson and Wach fights that he can move a bit, but I don't think his foot speed and mental toughness is where it would need to be for that sort of challenge.

This is the biggest surprise, Magna. Does Old Foreman really win on style at this point of his career? I think he might be too ploddy, too slow of foot & hand to trouble and pressure Wlad enough. Maybe Foreman sees the weakness and capitalizes on it but I have trouble seeing the older, bigger, Foreman being able to close the distance and capitalize. Young Foreman is a different story altogether. It would be interesting to see Wlad react, though. Foreman is very mentally strong and Wlad really hasn't had to resist against pressure from a quality opponent in some time.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Conversely, Tyson has more in his arsenal and could get to Wlad, much faster at closing the distance and getting into his preferred range. Still, if he doesn't finish the task in 5, the tables turn.

Eh, no. That's like reverse rose-colored glasses there. Mythical stuff. It's not as if Tyson rolled over and started taking punches just because guys started lasting past round 8. Wlad will just be negative like Bonecrusher Smith. He's never shown the resolve to suddenly turn the tables on a fighter after taking punishment. In fact, Wlad's one of the more easiest of ATG HWs to wilt after punishment. Tables turning after 5 would be a much better assessment of a Frazier-Wlad fight IMO. Heck, it would actually make more sense for a Marciano-Wlad prediction, regardless of the fantasy you think it takes to conjecture such a belief.

[MagnaNasakki]

[quote=PetethePrince;14960285]Thanks, I'd probably pick Ali too but I think it's genuinely difficult style matchup. Wlad is quite possibly the best HW out-fighter. Criticize his lack of punch variety or his lack of dimensions, but don't criticize his ability to control range and his jab & right hand. He's a better boxer than Lennox Lewis (Boxer, not fighter). Don't get me wrong, I can't pick him against Ali. It's almost sacrilegious, but Frazier may have better odds than Ali against Wlad. He might be a deservedly stronger favorite. It's all up to argument, though.



Dempsey has the firepower, but I don't give him that much more of a chance than Marciano. If any more. Williard gave up his range far far easier than Wlad would, and Williard doesn't have the speed nor agility of Wlad, and doesn't quite have the same octopus grapple on you when you get to close. Wlad's mastered that for whatever criticism he gets his way for it.



Me too. It hurts to me say that Holyfield-Wlad is probably no better than a 50/50 shot for Holyfield. That feels generous because Wlad has a good style for him I think.

Bowe and Lewis win because they'd fight inside, and have the strength and size to not get dominated physically and to get leverage, as well as avoid being leaned on or redirected with the left(Wlad's best trick that nobody talks about).

Definitely agree with that.



Interesting fights, I'd favor those guys naturally. I think big brother beats up on Liston though. Too ploddy.



Louis has much better chance than Liston. I feel very strongly on Louis beating Wlad. Surely Wlad could end it up with a nice right hand but Louis had all the tools to close the distance. Louis closed the distance brilliantly against Carnera and looked devastating against the bigger fighters he faced as well. Wlad can't not hold up to that sort of efficient, attacking mode/ability. He won't be pitching enough and he's going to give the ball up somewhere along the way and Louis is going to make him pay badly. That will drastically change the fight in my view. I just don't see Wlad controlling Louis at the end of his jab for the entire fight. I don't necessarily think Wlad has a style edge at all actually. I think he's made to order in a lot of ways for Louis, it's just that Wlad is so much physically bigger, and so capable from a distance with his jab & right hand which should naturally trouble a smaller stalking Louis for some time. But Louis could close the distance better than given credit against bigger fighters. Wlad likes to jump back from offense, and Louis would press Wlad enough to unhinge him from his comfort. The truth about the Haye-Wlad fight was Haye had his most successful moments when he created the initiative offensively, like in the 12th round. The truth is Louis is a killer with the offensive initiative.



This is the biggest surprise, Magna. Does Old Foreman really win on style at this point of his career? I think he might be too ploddy, too slow of foot & hand to trouble and pressure Wlad enough. Maybe Foreman sees the weakness and capitalizes on it but I have trouble seeing the older, bigger, Foreman being able to close the distance and capitalize. Young Foreman is a different story altogether. It would be interesting to see Wlad react, though. Foreman is very mentally strong and Wlad really hasn't had to resist against pressure from a quality opponent in some time.

Until I see Wlad react under the pressure I know from experience George would and could bring(George was just as much a rolling tide as Marciano, but much larger, stronger and longer. Also, a damn fine sterling jab.), doubts remain.

[SP_Mauler]

Originally Posted by Seamus

For the record...

Rocky has little chance. For all his stamina and durability against smaller, older elite fighters, a prime Wlad would be dishing out too much and demand too high a price for Marciano to close the distance. And please, stop with the Marciano was hard to hit. Marciano was harder to hit than he seemed but still ate tons of leather.

I think Wlad has the right combination of assets to dissuade and ultimately stop Frazier. Too strong, too good of footwork, too powerful.

Conversely, Tyson has more in his arsenal and could get to Wlad, much faster at closing the distance and getting into his preferred range. Still, if he doesn't finish the task in 5, the tables turn.

Ali, no question. Just too much.

Take your blinkers off, If Frazier lands on Ali he's landing on Wladimir and Wladimir isn't taking half as many as Ali. Good footwork? Tyson had footwork,Holmes,Liston,Ali,Loughran,Tunney..Wladimir? Hardly. Wladimir is also slower then Walcott and definitely Charles. Valuev outweigh Hayes by 100pounds.


What? If Tyson doesn't take him out within 5? What? Wladimir staminia gets worse over the rounds?? I don't see it. Tyson by KO


You make out Wladimir is one of the hardest punchers of all times. Where was all this power when he was knocked out. The same power that landed on Wach or the same power that landed on TT in the first couple rounds which TT shrugged off. He wears them down and breaks there soul he can't use that against a man who's never been beaten before.

I don't recall a fight of Rockys where he showed signs of being hurt.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by SP_Mauler

Take your blinkers off, If Frazier lands on Ali he's landing on Wladimir and Wladimir isn't taking half as many as Ali. Good footwork? Tyson had footwork,Holmes,Liston,Ali,Loughran,Tunney..Wladimir? Hardly.


What? If Tyson doesn't take him out within 5? What? Wladimir staminia gets worse over the rounds?? I don't see it. Tyson by KO


You make out Wladimir is one of the hardest punchers of all times. Where was all this power when he was knocked out. The same power that landed on Wach or the same power that landed on TT in the first couple rounds which TT shrugged off. He wears them down and breaks there soul he can't use that against a man who's never been beaten before.

I don't recall a fight of Rockys where he showed signs of being hurt.

The first thing every trainer talks about regarding Wlad is his footwork. Sorry, it's his best tool.

And yes, I pick Tyson over Waldo , tho it would get interesting if it went longer than 5 as the punishmennt Wlad is shipping would start to take its toll. Why does everyone ignore the Insane amount of damage that 1-2 do over a few rounds?

Where was Earnie Shaver's power when he was KO'd? I only repeat what trainers and opponents say. Of there is someone more qualified to guage Wlad's power let me know.

Wach ate a shit ton of hard shots. He's huge, strong and for the time iron chiined dude. One thing about Wlad's power is that he doesn't hide his shots well. Foreman was great at keeping his left in front of his opponents face while the right was on its way. Wlad could have learned from that.

And lastly Marciano was hurt as fuck in the 10th against Walcott, ready to go in fact. But he was an animal, no doubt.

[KidDynamite]

Originally Posted by Seamus

The first thing every trainer talks about regarding Wlad is his footwork. Sorry, it's his best tool.

And yes, I pick Tyson over Waldo , tho it would get interesting if it went longer than 5 as the punishmennt Wlad is shipping would start to take its toll. Why does everyone ignore the Insane amount of damage that 1-2 do over a few rounds?

Where was Earnie Shaver's power when he was KO'd? I only repeat what trainers and opponents say. Of there is someone more qualified to guage Wlad's power let me know.

Wach ate a shit ton of hard shots. He's huge, strong and for the time iron chiined dude. One thing about Wlad's power is that he doesn't hide his shots well. Foreman was great at keeping his left in front of his opponents face while the right was on its way. Wlad could have learned from that.

And lastly Marciano was hurt as fuck in the 10th against Walcott, ready to go in fact. But he was an animal, no doubt.

Wlad has worse stamina than Tyson, genius.

Wladiqueer is ready to quit after 5 rounds while Tyson simply decreases in intensity.

Tyson is just all wrong for him ... Wlad likes to be in control of his opponent and he could never do that against Tyson, who would be up in his ass right after the opening bell.

Wlad containing Tyson defies the laws of nature and is a laughable proposition. You are pitting the greatest heavyweight KO artist against a shaky chinned, timid robot. Wlad would never have turned pro in Tyson's era knowing that he would have to fight an animal like Tyson.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by SP_Mauler

????????????? loooooooooooool. Arguably the smartest boxer to get into the ring with the arguably the smartest trainer in his corner are going to let Wladimir stand there and jab him??

No, but then again Louis has never fought a man like Wlad, someone who is constantly trying to control distance and tempo with perhaps one of the best jabs ever, a very powerful, long accurate right cross and explosive left hook, also good at nuetralizing an attacking opponent. Louis, was very adept at parrying the jab and destroying bigger men but look how much success Buddy Baer had before ultimatly being KO'd. I think it's fair to say that Buddy could be seen as a poor man's Wlad...but with bigger balls.

No fighter stands there and lets themselves get hit, but it's inevitable that Wlad will land some good shots on Louis, vice versa too.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Seamus

And lastly Marciano was hurt as fuck in the 10th against Walcott, ready to go in fact. But he was an animal, no doubt.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] This video should start at 30:17 the beginning of the 10th round, please show me where Marciano was "hurt as fuck" and "ready to go in fact"...cos I don't see Walcott land much in fact he just made him miss and let Marciano take by landing some good rights.

Edit: Stupid fucking youtube, well anyway put it at 30:17 which is the start of the 10th and please show me because I can't see it.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Foreman was great at keeping his left in front of his opponents face while the right was on its way. Wlad could have learned from that.

He does it all the time. In fact, better than Foreman. And not even as transparently illicit as when LL holds with the left and shoots with the right.

[lufcrazy]

I actually think holy could beat Wlad. He was able to hah his way in against every super heavy he fought due to his speed and mobility advantage. Plus his punch variety in the pocket is supreme.

He could do wlad before 5 round.

In fact the only man I would pick to outbox wlad would be Ali. Anyone else has to stop him.

[MagnaNasakki]

Wlad's 1-2 is perfect. Yes, perfect. As in, I have not seen a heavyweight throw that combination better. He hooks off the jab very, very well. His lead left hook is very powerful and quick, despite often being telegraphed. He moves his feet to keep distance masterfully.

Problem is, that's all there is. It's extremely formidable, extremely hard to get around, but when you are around it, you have your big chances. No inside game. No uppercuts. Body punching is so sporadic as to be a non-factor. Only throws in combination with a badly hurt opponent or a sitting target(Byrd II, Wach, Brock).

The other thing that hurts him against guys like Tyson is his tendency to overwhelm or wait. If he doesn't get you with his opening tries in the first 4 rounds, he tends to settle in rather than push the issue. He was much better against Wach, trying to finish the whole 12 rounds(His roided out opponent just would not go), but until I see more of it, I'll say his trend is what he's shown in Rahman, Ibragimov, Thompson I...If you hang around, he lets you hang around. If Tyson DIDN'T take Wlad out early, for the sake of example, he'd have a chance to do it late. Same with Louis.

In the end, I think it all comes down to the jab and the clinch. If you have a way past or through the jab, you get in. If you have a way to prevent, outfight, or jump the clinch(Frazier would jump the hell out of the clinch, and I think Louis could too if he focused on that effort), then, you have a massive punching bag; There is nothing else. Thing is, you get stuck behind that jab, and you are probably getting outjabbed. Then comes the right, and if necessary, the big left, and that's just trouble for anybody. If you can't stop the holding, you are going to keep getting reset at his preferred range, and eventually, he gets a chance to establish his jab all over again, and you have to contend with an incredible drain on your legs and lungs fighting all that mauling.

It's a solvable puzzle, but if you've boxed, you know it's a damn difficult one. Guys like Tyson and Ali have the hand and the footspeed to accomplish it, guys like Holmes and Liston have the very rare chance to outjab him, Lewis can outfight him because he's just as big and strong and ten times as mean, and Frazier has the educated pressure and ability to work around holding. Louis has the ability to punch short and still cause tremendous damage, even though it seems obvious to me he'd be outgunned outside, I think he'd find his target in no-man's land eventually and Joe Louis rarely needed a second try.

Wlad belongs. He might not be the best heavyweight h2h, or anything close, but he's a massive headache to deal with. Just a dangerous pain in the ass.

[RockysSplitNose]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Stay, Seamus. It'd really suck if you left too.

And RockySplitNose! I dont see you around much anymore, your posts are absolutely class! Miss em.

I think Moorer has the wrong southpaw style and a size problem against Wlad, to be honest. A lot of his sharp power punch is focused in tight right hands, really great short hooks, excellent uppercuts, a jab that kicks like a mule. Wlad's half a foot reach advantage would really hurt him badly with that. He'd have to lunge into left hands with no reliable way to set them up, which stands to reason that he'd, eventually, settle right in front of him like he did Foreman and Holyfield twice. Then, the straight right hand ends his night. If he stays cagey and discplined(Rare for him, but he had a couple performances where he stayed on the plan all night), I see an Ibragimov fight at best for him, a Chagaev fight at worst.

Moorer is underrated, but Wlad is an awful styles and gifts clash for him.

Thanks for the response magna - most of what you say carries a lot of weight with me - I always liked Moorer - thought he was brilliant - reminded me of a southpaw/mirror image of Joe Louis - he was real methodical and correct with his technique and was a real good hitter too for a light heavy - thought he was doing a number on foreman until the one in a million shot - like you say though I think Vlad wild be horrible for him style wise

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

Thanks for the response magna - most of what you say carries a lot of weight with me - I always liked Moorer - thought he was brilliant - reminded me of a southpaw/mirror image of Joe Louis - he was real methodical and correct with his technique and was a real good hitter too for a light heavy - thought he was doing a number on foreman until the one in a million shot - like you say though I think Vlad wild be horrible for him style wise

Moorer was brilliant the night he fought Foreman, almost perfect. Goes to show, though, that you don't stand still in front of a big punching guy, or really any trained fighter. Moorer admired his work for 30 seconds. Big mistake.

Had Moorer stayed disciplined and completed his one-sided clinic of George, won 10-2, 9-3(I think those would have been the probable scores), been confident, he could have reigned for a bit. A confident, disciplined, well conditioned Moorer like we saw for 9 rounds is a TOUGH assignment.

But, as we agree, Wlad is toxic style-wise for him. Moorer has no way to reach him with the big shots, not sure method to control the jab battle, and a tendency to walk into big right hands.

[obviousalt]

I think if Wlad has the outside game of Ricardo Lopez he would be "unbeatable"...(Nobody is unbeatable)
But that's just my love for Lopez his style

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by obviousalt

I think if Wlad has the outside game of Ricardo Lopez he would be "unbeatable"...(Nobody is unbeatable)
But that's just my love for Lopez his style

Lopez was pretty damn good everywhere. Love watching him fight. No weaknesses, all strengths. Only thing you could say he didn't have was top flight athletic ability and strength for his size.