Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Go back and read. Is that too difficult?

The pro Wlad debate is made up of mostly insults ,tantrums and accusations with very little boxing talk.

well i've read the last view and plenty of insults and bullshit are coming from you. when i get a chance i'll go read but i've read to see anything approaching a reasonable argument for marciano

[dinovelvet]

Marciano advantages:

Better chin. Better stamina. Better body puncher. Harder puncher - its been proven. A recent Bleetcher report, Rock 4 , Foreman 1. No mention of Wlad. Look it up.

Wlad was gassed from fighting a non moving , bodysack last time out.

[dinovelvet]

Dont judge till you read the thread. There are plenty legitimate arguments in favour of Rock .

And,Seamus just outed yourself as a troll. Well done.

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Marciano advantages:

Better chin. Better stamina. Better body puncher. Harder puncher - its been proven. A recent Bleetcher report, Rock 4 , Foreman 1. No mention of Wlad. Look it up.

Wlad was gassed from fighting a non moving , bodysack last time out.

agree on the first 3, i can go with that. harder puncher i do not.

i read the bleecher report, it's not proven but simply another subjective list by a writer. not the worst list i've ever read but it's not proof of anything.

i certainly don't feel that marciano is a harder puncher but his chin, stamina and body attack are stellar. in wlad's corner, there's ring generalship, the jab, and footwork.

marciano does have his advantages, just not enough to compensate for his major disadvantages

[HOUDINI]

The fight would of course be sanctioned today. Undefeated all time great Rocky Marciano ...one of boxings all time ko punchers against the not so undefeated Wlad who was koed three times by nobodies and fights like a walking statue. (typical European stand straight up boring style). So it could be billed as "the Rock vs the Statue" It would be the highest grossing bout in boxing history drawing a world wide audience. Unfortunately all you European folks will be saddened when your man after falling in many sections starts crying mid ring as his corner rushes into the ring to stop the fight.

[dinovelvet]

Nightcrawler, you know well that report isn't the only source in the world. Its a known fact Rock was one of the hardest hitters in HW history. Every professional boxing writer agrees on that.

When Wallcot went down, he barely made a twitch for 5 full minutes.

He punched Vingo so hard he went into a coma and never fought again.

Lastraza's both arms were broken from defending himself and get to get surgery to remove blood clots that turned to into big lumps of jelly.

Wlad is a heavy puncher, but so are most HW's. Rahman used knock fighters down like bowling pins. Does that mean hes a harder hitter than rock?

Who has Wlad put away as that matches the severity of some of Rocks victims? He couldn't knock out Haye.

Imagine what would happen to Wlads brittle jaw when Rock lands clean.

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Nightcrawler, you know well that report isn't the only source in the world. Its a known fact Rock was one of the hardest hitters in HW history. Every professional boxing writer agrees on that.

When Wallcot went down, he barely made a twitch for 5 full minutes.

He punched Vingo so hard he went into a coma and never fought again.

Lastraza's both arms were broken from defending himself and get to get surgery to remove blood clots that turned to into big lumps of jelly.

Wlad is a heavy puncher, but so are most HW's. Rahman used knock fighters down like bowling pins. Does that mean hes a harder hitter than rock?

Who has Wlad put away as that matches the severity of some of Rocks victims? He couldn't knock out Haye.

Imagine what would happen to Wlads brittle jaw when Rock lands clean.

marciano was a massive hitter, massive for his size. wlad in my opinion is just as destructive when he lands. he just prefers to wears fighters down, grind them down before finishing them. he has the power just a different style and means of delivering it

as for if rocky him him clean, sure he could knockout wlad. i don't see him landing cleanly often enough to knock him out. sure, one is all it takes but usually it takes a lot more than one. even in this matchup

[dyna]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

We can speculate but I always like to see how a fighter finishes his career before I judge, some get better with age and experience and others provide us with insight to weaknesses they always had and are magnified or exposed with age. As far as matching era's its a hard thing because we either move one man backwards or the other forward but we do not have time machines that can adjust for head to heads. As for me i judge a fighter by the era and a great fighter in his era is a great fighter. As for the new batch of heavyweights more of them are 6"7, 6'9, 6'8 and north of 240lba, I dont know if makes their chins stronger of makes them better but it may be time to call them Super Heavyweights and create a heavyweight division with a 220-230 Maximum and then let the champs fight if it has public interest.

Even an old conservative boxing man like myself see the need for change because some of the big men are getting better and there is an over 6'3 235lb weight class

Let the chips fall where they may

When you look at the statistics.
When weight of opponent goes up, KO ratio goes down.

When Ali faced men who weighted 175-184 his KO ratio was an extreme 100%....
185-199 it was a very good 75%.

But when the opponent weighted 215lbs+ it was just 33%.

Joe frazier his KO ratio on sub 200 lbs guys was an enormous 100%.
On 215lbs+ guys just 45%

Earnie Shavers had a 93% KO ratio on guys who weighted in at 185-199 lbs.
But just 47% against guys who weighted in at 215+lbs.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

agree on the first 3, i can go with that. harder puncher i do not.

i read the bleecher report, it's not proven but simply another subjective list by a writer. not the worst list i've ever read but it's not proof of anything.

i certainly don't feel that marciano is a harder puncher but his chin, stamina and body attack are stellar. in wlad's corner, there's ring generalship, the jab, and footwork.

marciano does have his advantages, just not enough to compensate for his major disadvantages

Marciano only has a stamina advantage.

He got dropped by a lightheavy, a good lightheavy but a blown up lightheavy nonetheless.

Tell me the last time Wlad was on the ground after a lightheavy hit him.

[rusak]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Marciano advantages:

Better chin.

Proven against cruiserweights and light heavies?

Harder puncher - its been proven. A recent Bleetcher report, Rock 4 , Foreman 1. No mention of Wlad. Look it up.

We're pointing and laughing at you.

[Boilermaker]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

i haven't read the whole thread. how do you imagine rock winning? battle plan, etc. this is genuine curiousity

If you watch the rock, his battle plan doesnt change, so this is an easy question.

He will crouch in a proper stance. He will look to slip and duck Wlads Jab so that he can land a hook and uppercut. When Wlad Clinches when the fighters are in close, (as he always does), instead of trying to outmuscle and wrestle him (as most recent fighters have done), he will break immediately, set himself in the same position and fire off exactly the same jabs, straight rights, hooks, uppecuts etc. this is going to do a few things, but most importantly, it is going to make Wlad lift his workrate to much, much higher than he is used to. Something which his recent style has been designed to prevent. This will mean that Wlad becomes very tired and prone to the KO which is one of his biggest weaknesses he has. As seen by the Purity and Brewster fights among others. I know he has managed to hide this with his Style, but Rocky is a different ball game.

The biggest concern in this fight for rocky is obviously the reach disadvantage. No doubt it is massive. But what difference does it really make. rocky had a massive reach disadvantage in every single fighter he fought. And this is made all the more obvious by his inside style which doesnt really require reach anyway. Wlad has not ever fought an inside fighter that i can think of, with the possible exception of Sanders or possibly Haye. And neither of those really had a high workrate like Marciano.

It is unlikely, though possible (based on Sanders and even Brewster and other fights) that Wlad will fold on the first punch rocky lands. It is also unlikely (based on Purity, Brewster, and other fights) that Wlad can maintain the workrate needed to beat Rocky. It is possible i guess, but i just cant see it. When i think about this fight, I really think that Wlad's best chance is to come out swinging hard, much like the younger but less successful version of himself. If he catches Rocky earlier, it is definitely possible that he KOs him, or dazes him enough to stop his work rate and dominate the fight with his jab, as he has others before him. Unlikely but definitely possible, and i think this might give him a better chance than Jabbing and Grabbing and hoping he has the stamina to stay.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

If you watch the rock, his battle plan doesnt change, so this is an easy question.

He will crouch in a proper stance. He will look to slip and duck Wlads Jab so that he can land a hook and uppercut. When Wlad Clinches when the fighters are in close, (as he always does), instead of trying to outmuscle and wrestle him (as most recent fighters have done), he will break immediately, set himself in the same position and fire off exactly the same jabs, straight rights, hooks, uppecuts etc. this is going to do a few things, but most importantly, it is going to make Wlad lift his workrate to much, much higher than he is used to. Something which his recent style has been designed to prevent. This will mean that Wlad becomes very tired and prone to the KO which is one of his biggest weaknesses he has. As seen by the Purity and Brewster fights among others. I know he has managed to hide this with his Style, but Rocky is a different ball game.

The biggest concern in this fight for rocky is obviously the reach disadvantage. No doubt it is massive. But what difference does it really make. rocky had a massive reach disadvantage in every single fighter he fought. And this is made all the more obvious by his inside style which doesnt really require reach anyway. Wlad has not ever fought an inside fighter that i can think of, with the possible exception of Sanders or possibly Haye. And neither of those really had a high workrate like Marciano.

It is unlikely, though possible (based on Sanders and even Brewster and other fights) that Wlad will fold on the first punch rocky lands. It is also unlikely (based on Purity, Brewster, and other fights) that Wlad can maintain the workrate needed to beat Rocky. It is possible i guess, but i just cant see it. When i think about this fight, I really think that Wlad's best chance is to come out swinging hard, much like the younger but less successful version of himself. If he catches Rocky earlier, it is definitely possible that he KOs him, or dazes him enough to stop his work rate and dominate the fight with his jab, as he has others before him. Unlikely but definitely possible, and i think this might give him a better chance than Jabbing and Grabbing and hoping he has the stamina to stay.

His arms are truly too short to hit Wlad at normal ranges.
By the time he can hit Wlad his chin Wlad can already push him away.

And punching that much upwards is going to kill your power.

[rusak]

Vlad vs Marciano in 6 ounce gloves. The only question is, does Vlad hospitalize Marciano or send him straight to the morgue?

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

If you watch the rock, his battle plan doesnt change, so this is an easy question.

He will crouch in a proper stance. He will look to slip and duck Wlads Jab so that he can land a hook and uppercut. When Wlad Clinches when the fighters are in close, (as he always does), instead of trying to outmuscle and wrestle him (as most recent fighters have done), he will break immediately, set himself in the same position and fire off exactly the same jabs, straight rights, hooks, uppecuts etc. this is going to do a few things, but most importantly, it is going to make Wlad lift his workrate to much, much higher than he is used to. Something which his recent style has been designed to prevent. This will mean that Wlad becomes very tired and prone to the KO which is one of his biggest weaknesses he has. As seen by the Purity and Brewster fights among others. I know he has managed to hide this with his Style, but Rocky is a different ball game.

The biggest concern in this fight for rocky is obviously the reach disadvantage. No doubt it is massive. But what difference does it really make. rocky had a massive reach disadvantage in every single fighter he fought. And this is made all the more obvious by his inside style which doesnt really require reach anyway. Wlad has not ever fought an inside fighter that i can think of, with the possible exception of Sanders or possibly Haye. And neither of those really had a high workrate like Marciano.

It is unlikely, though possible (based on Sanders and even Brewster and other fights) that Wlad will fold on the first punch rocky lands. It is also unlikely (based on Purity, Brewster, and other fights) that Wlad can maintain the workrate needed to beat Rocky. It is possible i guess, but i just cant see it. When i think about this fight, I really think that Wlad's best chance is to come out swinging hard, much like the younger but less successful version of himself. If he catches Rocky earlier, it is definitely possible that he KOs him, or dazes him enough to stop his work rate and dominate the fight with his jab, as he has others before him. Unlikely but definitely possible, and i think this might give him a better chance than Jabbing and Grabbing and hoping he has the stamina to stay.

i'm sorry but i don't see this at all.

1) rocky WILL try to crouch and slip the jab. he will fail, round after round and his eye will close as a result

2)rocky will not break the clinch. wlad is stronger (yes, rocky was a bull for a 180 pound man) and will hold til he's ready to let go. rocky may swing wildy at the break and catch him the odd time. as orriray pointed out, punching upward will take away a LOT of his power.

3)rocky will NEVER be in position to fire off his barrage. wlad will push him back and use his feet to create distance. rocky would be missing by inches every single time.

4) rocky's workrate will be completely nullified by wlad's control of the distance and tempo of the fight. add that to wlad's jab, clinches and constant leaning on rocky,and we'll see that workrate drop significantly

[Boilermaker]

Originally Posted by dyna

His arms are truly too short to hit Wlad at normal ranges.
By the time he can hit Wlad his chin Wlad can already push him away.

And punching that much upwards is going to kill your power.

This is not totally unrealistic or unbelievable.

But, you have applied the computer game annalysis too much, and it doesnt work that way. For a start, tell me:

But what distance did Fraziers left hook travel? ABout 15-20 inches? if you are leading with this punch, as he and many otehr great figthers did on many occassions, you are going to have to overcome a reach disadvantage of about 30 to 40 inches against any fighter, even the middleweights! Sure, this is often set up with a jab, which evens things out, but it often isnt.

I agree that smothering and pushing is a good tactic for Wlad (though you cant really do both teh way Wlad clinches which is basically to push down with his gloves and lean on his fighter). With Wlads gloves and tape, you cant really hold the arms and clinch (so it isnt his fault). Rocky doesnt really wrestle and push that much. when clinched or pushed back, he would just reset himself and come back swinging (without the 3 or 4 second break minimum which most of Wlads opponents have). It wont affect Rocky, and rocky will (unless he lands cleanly and scores a KO) will definitely be troubled until he wares Wlad down, much like he was troubled in many of fights until he wore his opponents down. Obviously it is doubtful that Wlad will be an easy fight early on even though i think rocks chances are better against Wlad than many fighter you might expect him to dominate and have an easy night against.

Your last point about punching up is an interesting one and fair, but again, it is overblown with a computer game style analysis. Things are not that simple. For a start , we are talking give or take an inch or two about 6 foot against 6 and half foot. which is six inches. Although Wlad fights high, and with a straight style, he does still drop down few inches which lessens the difference even further. Consider also that Rockys head punches are usually going to be when they are in close which means that wlad will be dropping right down (if he uses your tactics) and trying to push or lean on Rocky. This will completely take away any height advantage anyway and Rocky will probably end up punching down. Plus, what you are saying is more true for straight punches which is not necessarilly the punch Rocky will be throwing. Hooks are much easier to throw up a few inches and so are uppercuts. In fact for uppercuts it is actually easier to throw up. Body blows, obviously will not make much difference. Also dont forget that Rocky likes to crouch as low as possible with his legs to make it hard to hit him and easier for him to spring up and put power in his punches so in some ways the disadvantages you describe are opposite for rocky.