Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[Drew101]

Damn...I don't think I've posted in this thread at all, or even made any real attempt to read it till now. How in the hell did I miss this monstrosity!?

Anyway...here's my 5 cents (Canada got rid of the penny as a currency this week, so this is as low as I can go)

Let's not dismiss Wlad as being cowardly; or claim that Rock would be outclassed in terms of skill. WK came back from a harrowing KO and improved exponentially as a boxer. And Marciano was very good at drawing supremely skilled fighters into the kind of fight that gave him the best chance of winning. You don't do that against the likes of Moore and Charles without possessing a decent skill-set.

And let's assume that both fighters are operating with the same benefits in terms of training. If this fight takes place in the 50's, then Wlad doesn't have access to state of the art training facilities and probably loses some of his athleticism and strength as a result. If it takes place in the present day (preferable option, imo) then Marciano gets access to those state of the art training techniques and facilities. Chances are, he's coming in at 210-215 (he walked around at that weight and trained down), and keeping his punching power, stamina, and whatever speed he possessed (and he wasn't slow of hand, really).

So, we're dealing with a situation where one guy has a 35lb weight advantage, and a half a foot on his shorter foe. Plus, he's got a great jab, good movement, and power in both hands. On the other hand, the shorter guy hits god damned hard, is tougher to hit clean that he appears, and is capable of setting and keeping a pretty crazy pace.

I see the pressure getting to Wlad at some point, but not before WK builds up a lead with the jab. Ancient Joe Louis built up a lead with not a lot more than a stiff jab, but didn;t have the legs to keep away when the Rock surged. Wlad does, and between that and the clinching, I think he'll be able to play prevent defense long enough to secure a UD on the cards over 12.

of course, if this fight takes place in the 50's, over 15, Rock stops a less athletic and probably somewhat smaller Wlad late.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by Drew101

Damn...I don't think I've posted in this thread at all, or even made any real attempt to read it till now. How in the hell did I miss this monstrosity!?

Anyway...here's my 5 cents (Canada got rid of the penny as a currency this week, so this is as low as I can go)

Let's not dismiss Wlad as being cowardly; or claim that Rock would be outclassed in terms of skill. WK came back from a harrowing KO and improved exponentially as a boxer. And Marciano was very good at drawing supremely skilled fighters into the kind of fight that gave him the best chance of winning. You don't do that against the likes of Moore and Charles without possessing a decent skill-set.

And let's assume that both fighters are operating with the same benefits in terms of training. If this fight takes place in the 50's, then Wlad doesn't have access to state of the art training facilities and probably loses some of his athleticism and strength as a result. If it takes place in the present day (preferable option, imo) then Marciano gets access to those state of the art training techniques and facilities. Chances are, he's coming in at 210-215 (he walked around at that weight and trained down), and keeping his punching power, stamina, and whatever speed he possessed (and he wasn't slow of hand, really).

So, we're dealing with a situation where one guy has a 35lb weight advantage, and a half a foot on his shorter foe. Plus, he's got a great jab, good movement, and power in both hands. On the other hand, the shorter guy hits god damned hard, is tougher to hit clean that he appears, and is capable of setting and keeping a pretty crazy pace.

I see the pressure getting to Wlad at some point, but not before WK builds up a lead with the jab. Ancient Joe Louis built up a lead with not a lot more than a stiff jab, but didn;t have the legs to keep away when the Rock surged. Wlad does, and between that and the clinching, I think he'll be able to play prevent defense long enough to secure a UD on the cards over 12.

of course, if this fight takes place in the 50's, over 15, Rock stops a less athletic and probably somewhat smaller Wlad late.

Marciano, at 210-215, loses that underrated elusiveness that made him hard to hit. A rounder, slower Marciano, still shackled by being 7 inches shorter and lacking 14 inches of reach, just means a quicker execution. Wlad was 220 at 20 years old and always had been strong as hell. I don't see any different era diminishing his size or strength greatly. He is still going to be by far the stronger, bigger fighter here.

And typically in these match-ups, we choose the verifiable versions of said fighters, i.e. the versions that actually fought not some imaginary versions.

[AnthonyJ74]

Originally Posted by Seamus

So, you're saying Joe Walcott would be 6-6, and Kid Matthews would be 7-2 and by figuring in the extra decades Jess Willard would be 10 foot 3...

Because we all know that FOOD was invented in 1988.

LOL....Exactly! Marciano didn't exactly grow up in the Ice Ages! I'm sure he had plenty of butter, meat, cheese, and pasta to eat growing up. I'm not so sure he would have been any bigger had he grown up in today's world. Actually, a lot of the food during Marciano's youth was superior to a lot of the processed garbage that floods the market today. The big difference is that today you have better and more supplementation, less disease, and better medical care. But the food I'm not so sure.

[AnthonyJ74]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Either Klitschko would KO Marciano. Lewis would too. I love Rocky just as much as the next man, but let's be realistic. There is no way the 5'11'', 187 lb. Rocky Marciano could deal with the skilled size of Lennox Lewis or a Klitschko.

I think Marciano was closer to 5'9" actually.....Just saying.

[AnthonyJ74]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

are you smaller than your father,grandfather, do you weigh less, if so was your mother,grandmother short....my kids are all taller than me and I my siblings all taller and bigger than our parents,grandparents on the aggregate....a lot has to do with genetics just growing from era to era but I have 2 grandfathers that was over 6' ft and the matching Grandmother just about 5"ft. all the sons were over 6" by an inch or 2 but the daughters about 5'6 ...people just get bigger unless genetics on one sides has a big minus

I'm not sure that's true. If every generation were bigger than the preceding one, we'd all be 6'8" today.

There were plenty of tall people back in the pioneer days. Abe Lincoln was 6'4".

Just look around: you see plenty of old (80+) tall guys (who were no doubtedly taller in their youth).

I agree that average heights have increased on the whole, but I think the increase get greatly exaggerated.

[SP_Mauler]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Walcott was at the the very tail end of a long, grueling career. There is simply no denying it. 70 fights in, pushing 40 years old, 7-5 over his last 12 fights...

Ezzard Charles was a faded lightheavy, plain and simple. Degenerating by the day, he would be in a wheelchair inside a decade. He would go 10-13 over the remainder of his career.

Both great fighters in their day, and Charles was an ATG at light heavy some 7 or 8 years before. However, these versions of these fighters were simply husks... and yes, a Brock or an Ibragimov would handle them with ease.

^ This is bias.

Walcott didn't reach his peak untill his late age. Deny what? He didn't start beating the top level until he was 34years old and he was going the distance Joe Louis,Ezzard Charles,Joey Maxim and KO'd Harold Johnson so what you're saying is absolute garbage.

Ezzard Charles is one of the greatest P4P fighters of all time.He was going the distance and winning because that was the type of fighter he was before Rocky then went 15rounds with Rocky Marciano then took him another 8 in the rematch. He's "fading" but he's able to keep up with the best condition HW of all time and one of the hardest hitting this proves what you said was garbage.

They can take punishment and they would take punishment from the fighters you have mentioned(If Charles/Walcott were put in the position of being landed on EARLY because after 5 or 6 rounds the stamina of the fighters you mentioned worsen).

Everyone knows Rocky broke Archie Moore and Walcotts soul with his relentless punishment. That's all he did to Walcott and Charles.

[SP_Mauler]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Marciano, at 210-215, loses that underrated elusiveness that made him hard to hit. A rounder, slower Marciano, still shackled by being 7 inches shorter and lacking 14 inches of reach, just means a quicker execution. Wlad was 220 at 20 years old and always had been strong as hell. I don't see any different era diminishing his size or strength greatly. He is still going to be by far the stronger, bigger fighter here.

And typically in these match-ups, we choose the verifiable versions of said fighters, i.e. the versions that actually fought not some imaginary versions.

Why? when has Marcianos short reach ever been a disadvantage for him? When has being outweighed by 20+pounds ever been a disadvantage for him?

We know that pressure and a hard hitter can panic Wladimir that is why he clinchs.

[Absolutely!]

All this talk about advances in nutrition and supplementation is a bit misleading. Sure, if you want to live like a health freak it's much easier to do so nowadays, but the reverse is also true. With greater choice comes greater temptation. How many top level heavyweights truly make the most of these advances? Arreola? Solis? Helenius? Fury? Basic foodstuffs have remained unchanged in the Western world for the last century, probably longer. Mass malnutrition has not been a problem since the War. Whatever slight advantages modern supplements have had on performances have been grossly outweighed by the sharp drop in dedication, hard work and professionalism.

Marciano cannot be accused of not getting the most out of his body. These projections of a super bulked up 220lb version with all his physical traits intact is pure fantasy. Marciano was simply not a large man by modern standards, and no amount of supplementation short of steroids is going to change that. Were he to fight today he'd be a cruiserweight. Think Fragomeni or Diaconu. An average sized cruiserweight with plenty to spare on the scales. If he were foolish enough to move up to the heavyweight division he'd become a short roided up blob with about as much mobility as Shannon Briggs and half the power.

That's why this isn't a fair matchup. You're pitting two top fighters from completely different weight divisions fifty pounds apart and expecting that not to factor into things. On top of that the bigger man is not only a better athlete but faster and more skilled too. The fact that this thread has lasted so long is a tribute to the tenacity of old school fans to stick up for their man and his era, but the outcome of this fight really shouldn't be in any question.

[dinovelvet]

[quote=Seamus;14758721]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

[b]

Walcott was at the the very tail end of a long, grueling career. There is simply no denying it. 70 fights in, pushing 40 years old, 7-5 over his last 12 fights...

Ezzard Charles was a faded lightheavy, plain and simple. Degenerating by the day, he would be in a wheelchair inside a decade. He would go 10-13 over the remainder of his career.

Both great fighters in their day, and Charles was an ATG at light heavy some 7 or 8 years before. However, these versions of these fighters were simply husks... and yes, a Brock or an Ibragimov would handle them with ease.

Boxers were damaged goods after facing Rocky. Dont forget he almost killed Primo and left him in a coma. Able bodied LaStarza was also never the same again.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Boxers were damaged goods after facing Rocky. Dont forget he almost killed Primo and left him in a coma. Able bodied LaStarza was also never the same again.

He almost killed Primo? Primo who?

[dinovelvet]

Drew101,
Rocky carried Louis in the fight and could of finished him off a lot earlier than he did.
He had to be forced by his corner to just go out in the next round and get it over and done with. He apologised to him in his dressing room after.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Drew101,
Rocky carried Louis in the fight and could of finished him off a lot earlier than he did.
He had to be forced by his corner to just go out in the next round and get it over and done with. He apologised to him in his dressing room after.

What Primo were you talking about just there, that Rocky destroyed?

[orriray59]

Bump.

[Drew101]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Marciano, at 210-215, loses that underrated elusiveness that made him hard to hit. A rounder, slower Marciano, still shackled by being 7 inches shorter and lacking 14 inches of reach, just means a quicker execution. Wlad was 220 at 20 years old and always had been strong as hell. I don't see any different era diminishing his size or strength greatly. He is still going to be by far the stronger, bigger fighter here.

And typically in these match-ups, we choose the verifiable versions of said fighters, i.e. the versions that actually fought not some imaginary versions.

Thart's being disingenuous, though. If we want to pit the best version of the fighters against one another, they should have access to the best training regimen and facilities. Simple as that. If Wlad is transported back in time, he's still a big strong guy, of course...but given that he was a product of advanced Eastern European training facilities, he's probably not quite as big or strong or fluid for his size at that point, since they, to the best of my knowledge, weren't fully in operation at that point.

And it's not that much of a stretch to think that if Rock were training today, he'd be able to retain much of what made him a great fighter while fighting at a larger weight, while fighting at a slightly larger weight. Roy Jones put on 18 pounds to fight Ruiz and still retained a lot of his hand and foot speed. I don't see Marciano slowing down to a trudge if he trains under the same regimen.

Still think Wlad wins more often than over 12, though he probably isn't stopping Marciano unless it's through cuts. Over 15...might be a different story, especially if it's fought back then. Wlad could still win, but if Marciano takes him to the later portion, I think it's likely that he drowns Wlad in the championship rounds.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by Drew101

Thart's being disingenuous, though. If we want to pit the best version of the fighters against one another, they should have access to the best training regimen and facilities. Simple as that. If Wlad is transported back in time, he's still a big strong guy, of course...but given that he was a product of advanced Eastern European training facilities, he's probably not quite as big or strong or fluid for his size at that point, since they, to the best of my knowledge, weren't fully in operation at that point.

And it's not that much of a stretch to think that if Rock were training today, he'd be able to retain much of what made him a great fighter while fighting at a larger weight, while fighting at a slightly larger weight. Roy Jones put on 18 pounds to fight Ruiz and still retained a lot of his hand and foot speed. I don't see Marciano slowing down to a trudge if he trains under the same regimen.

Still think Wlad wins more often than over 12, though he probably isn't stopping Marciano unless it's through cuts. Over 15...might be a different story, especially if it's fought back then. Wlad could still win, but if Marciano takes him to the later portion, I think it's likely that he drowns Wlad in the championship rounds.

If an ex middleweight Archie Moore is capable of dropping Marciano clean...
(Walcott was also an ex mw), how does he survive Wlad his punches?

No offense to Moore, but doesn't hit half as hard as Wlad.