how would marvin hagler fare against the murderers row of the 40s?

[cotto20]

Hagler had problems with movers! and guys who could fight more than one way! willie the worm munroe, boogaloo watts, ray learnard and robeto duran were giveing marvin fits at times in there fights! imagine what burley would of been like archie moore said charley was as slick as lard and as slippery as butter, haglers worst nightmare!

[The Morlocks]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Hardly fair considering they didn't get their shot at the champion for the most part. What if Hagler never got his shot against Minter/Autuofermo and was stuck fighting black contenders no one wanted to fight?

When 3 of them did get their shot against a Prime Lamotta before Lamottas title shot, Marshall beat him, saying the best of the murderers row would too, Holman Williams lost a close decision past his prime at 34yo with 170+ fights. Lytell, not 1 of the best of the murderers row, was pre-prime and went to a close SD against Lamotta, someone on here posted it was controversal but I dont have the details. Burley beat Zivic more impressively than Lamotta (although that was at WW). And Lamotta said 'why do I need Burley why I can fight Zivic'?

And Lamotta was the only 1 going near the Murderers Row because Zale/GRaziano/Sugar Ray certainly didnt so who knows how they would have done??? I'd certainly pick Burley to dethrone Zale/Graviano and maybe even Cerdan/Lamotta despite being past it when they became champs

you can't really put Zale in that category, because he was in the war for the duration and when he came out 4 years later he went for the biggest buck; Graziano! Tony was really at the end of his career at that time and can be accused of ducking noone because of his service to his country.

[SLAKKA]

Originally Posted by shommel

if a guy like lamotta could whip some of them how would hagler do?

Jake got outclassed by Lloyd Marshall!!

[cotto20]

Originally Posted by shommel

if a guy like lamotta could whip some of them how would hagler do?

Whats with the if a guy like la motta could whip them? on his best day i would put la motta in with any other middleweight and give him a 50\50 chance, in his prime he was one of the most avoided fighters around, you dont have 6 match ups with sugar ray for nothing besides the last fight they had and the first fight which jake won takeing rays unbeaten record in process, they were all close hard fought battle's.

[SLAKKA]

Originally Posted by iran barkley

Whats with the if a guy like la motta could whip them? on his best day i would put la motta in with any other middleweight and give him a 50\50 chance, in his prime he was one of the most avoided fighters around, you dont have 6 match ups with sugar ray for nothing besides the last fight they had and the first fight which jake won takeing rays unbeaten record in process, they were all close hard fought battle's.

I'd love for you to give me those odds with Jake vs Lloyd Marshall

I could use your do ray mee!!

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Manassa

I readily acknowledge, and did previously, that Booker, Marshall, Burley and Williams were very good fighters.

But I'm not sold on the rest of them who are tarred with the same brush. They were just decent.

Shorty Hogue is an interesting story, went on quite a run though and went 1-1-3 against Booker, 2-1 against Archie Moore, 1-1 against Lloyd Marshall. And whats more went 42-11-2 in a career that only lasted. Did the last Moore fight ruin him or did he go off to war? He was only 21 when he had his last fight according to the Rec

Then you have Chase who beat Booker, went 1-4 against Moore, and 1-1 against Marshall, beating Aaron Wade more often than not but losing to Williams/Burley in numerous bouts

The thing about fights of this period is though, you have to ask how many were fixed???

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by The Morlocks

you can't really put Zale in that category, because he was in the war for the duration and when he came out 4 years later he went for the biggest buck; Graziano! Tony was really at the end of his career at that time and can be accused of ducking noone because of his service to his country.

Fair play, but either way they weren't getting a fair roll of the dice

[SLAKKA]

[quote=PowerPuncher;5552447]Shorty Hogue is an interesting story, went on quite a run though and went 1-1-3 against Booker, 2-1 against Archie Moore, 1-1 against Lloyd Marshall. And whats more went 42-11-2 in a career that only lasted. Did the last Moore fight ruin him or did he go off to war? He was only 21 when he had his last fight according to the Rec

West coast boxing back in Shortys day was covered by "The Knockout." Excellent publication. I recall reading someone on the scene saying, The more Shorty came into success and $$ the more he started screwing up and parting ect.
Like this is an old story in the fight game..right?

Anywho, I have all twin city write ups of Shortys fight with Burley and you cringe reading them. Talk about the frightful punishment. It wouldn't surprise me at all to discover Charlie considering this his golden career fight, so after that I'm sure Shortys head was like fk boxing!

[PowerPuncher]

[quote=SLAKKA;5552639]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Shorty Hogue is an interesting story, went on quite a run though and went 1-1-3 against Booker, 2-1 against Archie Moore, 1-1 against Lloyd Marshall. And whats more went 42-11-2 in a career that only lasted. Did the last Moore fight ruin him or did he go off to war? He was only 21 when he had his last fight according to the Rec

West coast boxing back in Shortys day was covered by "The Knockout." Excellent publication. I recall reading someone on the scene saying, The more Shorty came into success and $$ the more he started screwing up and parting ect.
Like this is an old story in the fight game..right?

Anywho, I have all twin city write ups of Shortys fight with Burley and you cringe reading them. Talk about the frightful punishment. It wouldn't surprise me at all to discover Charlie considering this his golden career fight, so after that I'm sure Shortys head was like fk boxing!

Interesting but not fighting after 21 is very strange, especially as its highly unlikely Shorty was set for life.

Maybe he came back under another name.....anyone got any idea about that???

[SLAKKA]

I do believe Shorty died in the early 60s as suicide. Below is the website of his biographer if u wanna make further inquires.


CharleyBurley.com

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Black middleweights of the '40s.

Overrated.

Williams, Burley, those two were brilliant. Lloyd Marshall was very good, Eddie Booker was arguably on his level.

Shorty Hogue was never fucking rated, nor his smaller brother, 'Big Boy.'

Cocoa Kid was very good as well, but he was a welterweight.

Bert Lytell, Tiger Wade, Jack Chase - they were pretty good, but not exactly uncrowned champions.

If Marvin Hagler lived in that era of short notice fights on the road and he fought each of these fighters twice, I reckon he'd end up with a record of 15-3-2. Or something. He was a special talent.

only person really missing from there is Georgie Abrams (missing from the murderers row that is despite being white)

[la-califa]

On the other side of the coin, how would LaMotta have done against the Philly Middleweights, Hagler had to go through?

[SLAKKA]

Originally Posted by GPater11093

only person really missing from there is Georgie Abrams (missing from the murderers row that is despite being white)

I was gonna say, to little Cocoas credit, he gave up many lbs and gave Georgie Freedom Abrams all he could handle.
In addition, Georgies draw vs Burley was really a case of Georgie getting his ass kicked.

Louis Kid Cocoa vs Washington's own Georgie Abrams by Nate Phillips THE RING. Nov 1940
At Washington, another Madison Square Garden attraction was presented in the main go of ten rounds between the number one welterweight contender, Louis Kid Cocoa. THE RING'S No. 5 middleweight and Washington's own Georgie Abrams. Cocoa scaled 1481/2 and Abrams, 158.

For the first three rounds, Abrams took the fight to Cocoa and had a slight edge, but at the start of the fourth, Cocoa found the range with that left of his and landed many telling blows in infighting.

the fifth, sixth and seventh were very big rounds for Cocoa who had Abrams' left eye cut. Abrams won the eighth by a shade, but in the ninth, Cocoa staggered Abrams and won the round. In the tenth and final, both went at it with Cocoa having a little the better of it, to take the round. The judges declared Abrams the winner at the end of a very good fight.

[cotto20]

Originally Posted by la-califa

On the other side of the coin, how would LaMotta have done against the Philly Middleweights, Hagler had to go through?

La motta had a prime ray robinson, holman williams, lloyd marshall, fritzie zivic, marcel cerdan and bob saterfield to deal with! he would not of lost no sleep over boogaloo watts, eugene hart or willie the worm monroe

[la-califa]

Originally Posted by iran barkley

La motta had a prime ray robinson, holman williams, lloyd marshall, fritzie zivic, marcel cerdan and bob saterfield to deal with! he would not of lost no sleep over boogaloo watts, eugene hart or willie the worm monroe

Would have had his hands full with "Bad" Bennie Briscoe!