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Old 05-28-2012, 07:42 PM   #76
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Default Re: Ray Robinson NOT top five all-time

Fighters that COULD have a arugement over Robinson.

Armstrong, Fitz, Ross, Canzi, Perhaps Benny Leonard, Sam Langford, Joe Walcott(The first one) over all the list is not a long one.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:37 AM   #77
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Default Re: Ray Robinson NOT top five all-time

But Floyd is still better.....at ducking.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:44 PM   #78
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Default Re: Ray Robinson NOT top five all-time

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Well in Langford's time his opponents all said he was the best. Many of Greb's said the same ...

There is validity to a degree in your post but there is no compensation for the overall quality of opposition .... it is absurb to argue over if Ray Robinson was an exceptional all time great because of course he was .. I'm just saying that especially at middleweight he did not fight all time great opposition ... the two greatest fighters he defeated were Gavilin at welter and LaMotta at middle .. Ray displayed excellence against at ton of guys of all sorts ... many , many of whom were world class and very tough but there is an argument that can be made that some other guys fought and competed against higher levels of competition ... that's my point ..

I think Langford did without question. Blackburn, Walcott, Gans, Ketchel, Johnson ... that's a pretty murderous line up ...

Is there anyone Greb did not fight from 160 to heavyweight in his day except Dempsey and that was because Jack would not make the fight ?

Back to Charles, especially the pre-Sam Boudini version, whom fought the toughest guys in possibly the toughest era ...

I'm not arguing against Robinson by any means .. however Ray , if you study his career, was extremely cagey and hands on in opponent selection ... once he became a draw and this was pretty fast, he decided who he would fight and under what circumstances ... he was the rarest of the rare , a black fighter from that era who called the shots ... and in calling them he managed to avoid some of the tougher fights of his time ... I am not saying he would not have won them all but the facts are the facts .. there were more than a few of the toughest black fighters of the era that Ray managed to never go near ..

Anyway ... my feelings are that Robinson was exceptional but I don't hand him the pound for pound title on a silver platter ...
And a plenty few of which he did whom were also top rated fighters at the time such as Wilson, Costner, Bell, Armstrong. It seems there was some slight reluctance to defend the title against the Keed (obviously Cuban in this instance) who was the flat out No. 1 guy in the division under Robby, but it obviously happened and for the better. Others would tell you Robinson didn't go all out in their first, non-title fight in order to build it. Either way, they opted not to film either fight.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:49 PM   #79
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And a plenty few of which he did whom were also top rated fighters at the time such as Wilson, Costner, Bell, Armstrong. It seems there was some slight reluctance to defend the title against the Keed (obviously Cuban in this instance) who was the flat out No. 1 guy in the division under Robby, but it obviously happened and for the better. Others would tell you Robinson didn't go all out in their first, non-title fight in order to build it. Either way, they opted not to film either fight.
Armstrong was a second rater when Robinson defeated him. Bell was a tough fighter but is he in anyones top twenty welter weights ? Thirty ? Doubtful ...
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:50 PM   #80
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he, I agree with you 101%. The silly thread was if Robinson was "top 5 all-time" ? There truly cannot be any doubt he was in the top 5 based on his incomparable ALL AROUND skills...But yes Ray was "cagey" and drove a hard bargain in his self promotion and choice of bouts...And yes Ray unlike a Harry Greb, Fitz, Langford, Henry Armstrong truly avoided much bigger
punchers than himself...Therefore my formula for the best P4P fighter is based on cleaning out your division AND tackling much heavier top bangers than your own weight class...And yes Robinson avoided the great black murderers row fighters of the time, even though they weighed a few pounds heavier than he did...While wer'e at it, let's not forget, Barbados Joe Walcott,and Jack [the giant killer] Dillon,alongst Mickey Walker in that mix...These guys were truly fearless in their time...Cheers.
Can't argue there B ...
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:04 PM   #81
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Armstrong was a second rater when Robinson defeated him. Bell was a tough fighter but is he in anyones top twenty welter weights ? Thirty ? Doubtful ...
Yeah, perhaps in comparison to his peak run in which he was one of the more dominant fighters in history. He could still mix it up and beat some of the best around at the time. He'd dropped decisions only to the likes of Beau Jack and Willie Joyce in the year preceding his fight with Robinson with wins over Zivic, Jenkins, Larkin, Angott... Nobody claiming he was in prime form, but certainly still amongst the elite.

Re: Bell, I'm not sure anybody would. He was just simply one of the black contenders Robinson did manage to fight. I dont excuse him for Burley and Cocoa Kid, if that's what you may be thinking.
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:11 AM   #82
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Default Re: Ray Robinson NOT top five all-time

I do find it slightly ironic that what should be an accomplishment for Robinson is oft times turned into a critique: The fact that he was able to and did tackle good middleweight opposition while hovering around around 147 lbs is turned into: "If he fought fighter X & Y, he should've fought Z". No, not really. It would've been magnificent to see (or at least to hear and read about), but it wasn't a necessity. The Burley fight in 1946 leaves a bit of a sour taste mostly because it was seriously attempted to be made, the money was there and Charley sure as hell deserved it. As a huge Robinson fan, there are two things I don't mind admitting: 1) Charley Burley and 2) The reasoning behind his willingness to fight Joey Maxim for the Light Heavyweight title. But stuff like fighting Archie Moore? Robby was a cut and dried, natural ectomorph. He was perpetually at fighting weight, and that sure as hell wasn't anywhere remotely in the ballpark of 175 lbs.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:25 AM   #83
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Default Re: Ray Robinson NOT top five all-time

He was the best fighter ever caught on film, for me.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:16 AM   #84
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Yeah, perhaps in comparison to his peak run in which he was one of the more dominant fighters in history. He could still mix it up and beat some of the best around at the time. He'd dropped decisions only to the likes of Beau Jack and Willie Joyce in the year preceding his fight with Robinson with wins over Zivic, Jenkins, Larkin, Angott... Nobody claiming he was in prime form, but certainly still amongst the elite.

Re: Bell, I'm not sure anybody would. He was just simply one of the black contenders Robinson did manage to fight. I dont excuse him for Burley and Cocoa Kid, if that's what you may be thinking.
HoI. good points...as i have posted i and my dad saw Robinson "play' with the 31 year old fading Armstrong at MSG in Aug,1943...we in the crowd sensed it,as it was obvious...But Armstrong prior to the fight beat Zivic, Lew Jenkins, Tippy Larkin,Sammy Angott, etc...He did lose to speedsters like Beau Jack [prime] and Willie Joyce [a perfect boxer] etc. Which tells us just how good Ray Robinson was in 1943, the year I saw him annihilate a tough Californian Jimmy McDaniels at MSG...
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:29 PM   #85
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He was the best fighter ever caught on film, for me.
With Duran.
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:14 AM   #86
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HoI. good points...as i have posted i and my dad saw Robinson "play' with the 31 year old fading Armstrong at MSG in Aug,1943...we in the crowd sensed it,as it was obvious...But Armstrong prior to the fight beat Zivic, Lew Jenkins, Tippy Larkin,Sammy Angott, etc...He did lose to speedsters like Beau Jack [prime] and Willie Joyce [a perfect boxer] etc. Which tells us just how good Ray Robinson was in 1943, the year I saw him annihilate a tough Californian Jimmy McDaniels at MSG...
Thanks for the input, Burt. It's honestly difficult for me to envision any version of Hank beating Robinson although that doesn't mean anything. Henry was on the slide and nobody would deny it; still, a very highly rated fighter and on a very impressive post-prime run. He added numerous names to his resume post-1940. A pretty historic sight and event if you think about it: Have any two higher rating P4P greats ever been in the same ring? Depends on your ratings, I guess.
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Old 05-31-2012, 07:15 AM   #87
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Thanks for the input, Burt. It's honestly difficult for me to envision any version of Hank beating Robinson although that doesn't mean anything. Henry was on the slide and nobody would deny it; still, a very highly rated fighter and on a very impressive post-prime run. He added numerous names to his resume post-1940. A pretty historic sight and event if you think about it: Have any two higher rating P4P greats ever been in the same ring? Depends on your ratings, I guess.
Lest we forget that after Henry Armstrong [faded as he was] lost to Ray Robinson in 1943, had about 160 tough bouts leading to Robbie, and about
21 fights AFTER, and still was capable of beating the likes of John Thomas, Aaron Perry, Willie Joyce, kod left-hook artist Al Bummy Davis, and drew with Luther "Slugger" White and Chester Slider in his LAST BOUT...A few of these guys were damn good fighters of that rich laden era...Cheers.
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:35 AM   #88
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Last edited by Hands of Iron; 10-13-2012 at 10:46 PM. Reason: Video Removed.
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Old 06-01-2012, 02:16 AM   #89
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:47 PM   #90
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What now?
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