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Old 08-30-2009, 01:39 PM   #16
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
I think that's very important. To take Germany as an example of this: can you imagine any other country where the likes of Sven Ottke, Axel Schulz and Karl Mildenberger could get a major following? The Germans tolerate feather-fisted safety-first (but very skilled) boxers more than most other countries.
I think the key in understanding this, is not so much that they have a thing for safety-first fighters or more tolerance for them, but rather their extreme chauvinism. German top boxers are rare and they will embrace anyone who manages to come near the top, regardless of how.


In fact, their chauvinism is so strong that a main reason boxing is big business in Germany now, is because of guys like Schulz and Maske. Not the most accomplished fighters to ever walk this planet, but it's fair to say that they unchained a series of events that lead to boxing going from nothing to a mainstream, "see and be seen in attendance" sport in Germany... and maybe i'm reaching here, but in a way, German's boxing popularity seems to (temporary) be saving the sport from a death it's dying in America. Based on this, we might have to include the likes of Ottke, Maske and Schulz in our p4p top15's.
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Old 08-30-2009, 01:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

90% of all the good mexican fighters i've ever watched were all very well schooled, complete fighters even if it was orientated to unflashy quality offensive work rather than a safety-first approach.

Most of the "blood and guts" ones were not a true world class level.as , imo is the case with most countries.

The unflashy, well -rounded textbook box-fighter is more the mexican style than unskilled labourer left-hookers.Cuevas has a lot to answer for.
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Old 08-30-2009, 02:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

PRicans tend to have very good salsaesque footwork and are usually very fluid

Mexicans are very well schooled, even the journeymen types
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Old 08-30-2009, 02:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
I think the key in understanding this, is not so much that they have a thing for safety-first fighters or more tolerance for them, but rather their extreme chauvinism. German top boxers are rare and they will embrace anyone who manages to come near the top, regardless of how.


In fact, their chauvinism is so strong that a main reason boxing is big business in Germany now, is because of guys like Schulz and Maske. Not the most accomplished fighters to ever walk this planet, but it's fair to say that they unchained a series of events that lead to boxing going from nothing to a mainstream, "see and be seen in attendance" sport in Germany... and maybe i'm reaching here, but in a way, German's boxing popularity seems to (temporary) be saving the sport from a death it's dying in America. Based on this, we might have to include the likes of Ottke, Maske and Schulz in our p4p top15's.
I don't think German fans are so much chauvinistic NATIONALLY as RACIALLY. Many Eastern European boxers have come to Germany over the years and built up major followings, while Turkic boxers like Sinan Samil Sam have a fanbase that seems to be almost exclusively Turkish. Germany is yet to have a Frank Bruno figure or even a Lennox Lewis.

Of course, if the boxer is a full-blooded Teuton with blonde hair, German fans will REALLY get behind them.

I realise I've offended many German fans, but I'm not saying that ALL German fans are abnormally racially chauvinist. I'm just saying a sufficient number of them were racist enough to be fans of Valuev and not Herbie Hide.
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Old 08-30-2009, 05:34 PM   #20
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

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I don't think German fans are so much chauvinistic NATIONALLY as RACIALLY. Many Eastern European boxers have come to Germany over the years and built up major followings, while Turkic boxers like Sinan Samil Sam have a fanbase that seems to be almost exclusively Turkish. Germany is yet to have a Frank Bruno figure or even a Lennox Lewis.

Of course, if the boxer is a full-blooded Teuton with blonde hair, German fans will REALLY get behind them.

I realise I've offended many German fans, but I'm not saying that ALL German fans are abnormally racially chauvinist. I'm just saying a sufficient number of them were racist enough to be fans of Valuev and not Herbie Hide.
Sort of like how they were "racially chauvinistic" during WW2?
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:51 PM   #21
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

Many of the Mexican-American fighters also have a different style compared to Mexican Nationals. Kind of combination of an American style and Mexican.
Mexican Americans boxed in American gyms but are also heavily influenced by trainers and fighters from Mexico that also go to the same gyms. The aggressive Mexican style is ingrained,but also Mexican americans come up in the same US amatuer programs that Black kids do(who usually are slick and fast) at least in the amatuers.
Fernando Vargas is a perfect example. He had excellent fundamentals (big amatuer) background but loved to fight like a Mexican National. Johnny Tapia is another example,the list goes on and on.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

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good example. Fighters such as themselves if born in another country have have had a different style or moved to different country.

Another example is Canto is Mexico (although he was well supported at the time) i have heard other Mexicans fighters refuse to rank him on an ATG Mexican fighters list as he didnt fight the 'wexican way'
Underground newsletter legend Malcolm "Flash" Gordon would always write that, "All Mexicans have two left feet, with the exception of Miguel Canto..." and even apply this reflexively to Sal Sanchez. While Sal wasn't as fluid as Gomez at his best, I felt Flash was off base with some of his indiscriminate stereotyping. (Sal wasn't all that popular with Mexican fans during his career, apparently not satisfying the blood lust of many of them until the X-ray of his skull from his fatal crash was published.)

During amateur competitions, American commentators seemed to always describe Mexicans as being able to take lots of punishment.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:07 PM   #23
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Those comments were all the proof you ever needed Gordon was a biased, clueless hack when it came the technical side of the sport.


Or maybe he just didn't like mexicans i guess.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

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Underground newsletter legend Malcolm "Flash" Gordon would always write that, "All Mexicans have two left feet, with the exception of Miguel Canto..." and even apply this reflexively to Sal Sanchez. While Sal wasn't as fluid as Gomez at his best, I felt Flash was off base with some of his indiscriminate stereotyping. (Sal wasn't all that popular with Mexican fans during his career, apparently not satisfying the blood lust of many of them until the X-ray of his skull from his fatal crash was published.)

During amateur competitions, American commentators seemed to always describe Mexicans as being able to take lots of punishment.
Yey this guy Gordon sounds like an idiot. Sounds like hedont even know that having great balance has alot to do with having good footwork.
I think Sanchez was every bit or more fluid than a prime Gomez,as he showed in their fight.
At the time Sanchez was fighting he might not have been as beloved as Olivares,Cuevas and Later Chavez. He has been a hero in Mexican boxing circles since his death, every fan from Mexico i know loves Sanchez.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

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Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
Underground newsletter legend Malcolm "Flash" Gordon would always write that, "All Mexicans have two left feet, with the exception of Miguel Canto..." and even apply this reflexively to Sal Sanchez. While Sal wasn't as fluid as Gomez at his best, I felt Flash was off base with some of his indiscriminate stereotyping. (Sal wasn't all that popular with Mexican fans during his career, apparently not satisfying the blood lust of many of them until the X-ray of his skull from his fatal crash was published.)

During amateur competitions, American commentators seemed to always describe Mexicans as being able to take lots of punishment.


Sanchez had excellant feet work, so did Olivares.
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:44 PM   #26
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

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Those comments were all the proof you ever needed Gordon was a biased, clueless hack when it came the technical side of the sport.


Or maybe he just didn't like mexicans i guess.
I sometimes wonder. He loved Napoles, and went so far as to compare Qawi's defense to his, after Ike stopped Saad Muhammad in their rematch.

He could certainly tend to stereotype, but he didn't have a boss's ass to kiss, and wasn't afraid to speak his mind (at least while publishing "Tonight's Boxing Program). When Arguello tried to blame Futch for mistraining him following the first loss to Pryor, Flash instantly ripped Alex a new one. I also liked Gordon's alternative take on Holmes-Cobb. Cosell has succeeded completely in posting his historical stamp on it as the supreme mismatch of all 15 round heavyweight title fights for personal reasons having no connection to the sport itself (and everything to do with the fact it meant he couldn't spend a holiday with his wife). Flash's account of Holmes-Cobb did credit to both participants.

He did a good job exposing the worms under boxing's rotten roots, and he was one of the funniest writers in the business when he got on a tear.
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

He had loads of good points for sure, just his left field comments were hard to reconcile at times.


He had a strong dislike of most British fighters as well it seemed.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

Panamanian fighters have a fluid, rythmic style: Laguna, Zapata, Marcel, Pedroza (even when he was fouling the hell out of his opponent), and even a younder Duran at times.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:59 PM   #29
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

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(Sal wasn't all that popular with Mexican fans during his career, apparently not satisfying the blood lust of many of them until the X-ray of his skull from his fatal crash was published.)
In my respectful opinion, this stereotype comment managed to exceed the top. Moreover, I don't believe it accurate.

Chava forever endeared himself to his countrymen with his superb victory over the brash Gómez. His career was shortened; he never had the chance to build a legacy such as that of the beloved Púas, but, make no mistake, he was and is fully appreciated for the great he was.

When it comes to boxing, at ringside, in the corner, or under the lights, Mexicans are not merely deliriously bloodthirsty oafs.

In my personal experience in the country talking to fans and in the gyms, the technical proficiency of a Julio César Chávez is respected much more than the sometimes-mindless windmilling of a Bazooka Limón. I see no basis to suggest that the dripping, pulsating heart-in-the-hand in ring center is a fetish to paying customers at Mexico City's Arena México any more than it is at the Garden in NYC. In fact, Mexican referees are much more considerate of the boxer in distress than is the norm north of the border.

Technique is paramount, but it is applied to the Mexican's average physical traits in the berth of the lower weights. This smaller individual has little use for fighting on the outside with a long jab or "dancing" around prowling for openings. He must come forward, into the firestorm, armed with the knowledge of attack and defense, lest he perish. Hence, such staples as the body shot to the liver and the tough chin of the hombre who knows he has entered a boxing ring and will inevitably take punishment.

Back of this is romanticism, bred of the upbringing by a saintly mother amidst an existence of hardship and no luck. But he is called to be the hero who will save the day. When you have nothing, pride, proving your manhood is a way of life -and the only thing you've got to trade in- but how often it has been that something extra, to rise just one more time, to go just one more round, and enter the Parthenon of the ring.
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:44 AM   #30
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Default Re: Latin fighter's national charictaristics

all about the fighters who are beign trained around you. ghanaian boxers you can tell from the back row. high guard, snappy jab and passive pressure fighters. and most of them are trained together and know each other in the community.

good call on the fighting to a crowd from gpater. as long as you excite and give a performance you will be tempted to return for another fight.

also an amatuer pedigree would lead to a more skilled, effective strategy. in the amatuers you dont win peformance or excitement points you just have to win the round. somthing that a pro boxing entertainment sport isnt fully accepting of.

now on the am front. most south american fighters cant afford to stay in the ams....even the ones who do are scarce to be in the top world level. cuba being th eonly nation of note in S.Aamerica that doesn tallow pro boxing. produces fatastic fighters
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