Many people consider Sugar Ray Robinson the GOAT...

[China_hand_Joe]

Ah sorry if I did not communicate myself.

When was the big boxing revolution, that mate the sport of boxing one with high quality competitors -qm-

[McGrain]

1600, 1700, something like that?

[China_hand_Joe]

Post-carnival days( like that documentary with Matt Skelton in) qm

[McGrain]

I never saw that.

Yeah, basically, once the English got the title sorted out you would see the "hardest" men in that country contesting the title with "scientific" (not really) men of near equal "hardness", perfect specimin for boxing as it exsisted under those rules.

[China_hand_Joe]

Skelton won btw.

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe

Surely footage of Mayweather actually being challenged would help your case. He wasn't a million miles from being flawless against the plodding Baldomir.

Yet you also have claimed that Robinson looked great only because his opponents were horrible. Tell you what--pick your own footage and point out the actual stylistic deficiencies.

(You still haven't pointed anything substantial out, and haven't elaborated on or backed up your single point about jab vulnerability).

[China_hand_Joe]

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

Yet you also have claimed that Robinson looked great only because his opponents were horrible. Tell you what--pick your own footage and point out the actual stylistic deficiencies.

(You still haven't pointed anything substantial out, and haven't elaborated on or backed up your single point about jab vulnerability).

I am claiming Robinson looked great, even though he looked subpar because people give his opponents too much respectl.

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe

Basilio was a midget welter weight with no defence. He is one of the worst boxers I have ever seen.

Here he is. Describe his weaknesses.

Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe

Te same weaknesses in Robinson were apparent against LaMotta.

...Which you've never explained or described, except that he wasn't Calzaghe.

[McGrain]

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe

I am claiming Robinson looked great, even though he looked subpar because people give his opponents too much respectl.

Very well.

Here's LaMotta against Robinson:



What makes him significantly worse than fighters today?

[China_hand_Joe]

I don.t even need to use this approach any more. I will oblitertate all your myths tomorrow, now is a bad time.

My next thread will comfirm my correctness.

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe

I don.t even need to use this approach any more. I will oblitertate all your myths tomorrow, now is a bad time.

My next thread will comfirm my correctness.

I look forward to your domino playing in the morning.

[Amsterdam]

Originally Posted by cross_trainer

Very well.

Here's LaMotta against Robinson:



worse than fWhat makes him significantly ighters today?

La Motta?

No footwork what so ever, no guard, poor timing, absurdly wide open, incorrect amatuerish sloppy arm punching and no speed to speak of to make up for some of these blatant technical flaws. No sense of distance either hardly.

At least from what I have observed there. Yet he's still able to land at times on Ray.

[China_hand_Joe]

Originally Posted by Amsterdam

La Motta?

No footwork what so ever, no guard, poor timing, absurdly wide open, incorrect amatuerish sloppy arm punching and no speed to speak of to make up for some of these blatant technical flaws. No sense of distance either hardly.

At least from what I have observed there. Yet he's still able to land at times on Ray.

But that was a past prime, middleweight (not welter) Robinson, who was tired and pacing himself in a 15 rounder.

And LaMotta, well he is better than he looks, he has one of those styles, like Monzon. That jab is also faster than it looks, jerky 1940s film footage makes it seem slower. And he is a very tall 5"8.

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by Amsterdam

La Motta?

No footwork what so ever, no guard, poor timing, absurdly wide open, incorrect amatuerish sloppy arm punching and no speed to speak of to make up for some of these blatant technical flaws. No sense of distance either hardly.

At least from what I have observed there. Yet he's still able to land at times on Ray.

It's almost as if we're watching different films...

Footwork -- 5:07-5:03 (counting backwards due to the way Youtube videos upload) is a good demonstration as any. LaMotta punches, pivots around Ray, and continues punching, with good leverage on all of his blows. 5:27-5:25, or thereabouts, he does a forward skip that is fairly standard in boxing today. He makes pretty good use of these skip-steps to maintain distance and avoid counterpunches (5:19-5:17 is a good example. There's also one before that.). He's in pretty good position to crouch and recover, the best example ending at 4:51.

No Guard -- His guard isn't up when they're out of range, if that's what you mean (it would be pretty useless there anyway). When in range, his right hand is usually at his chin and his left is drawn forward and back rather than dropped after the jab. It's low, but the shoulder is drawn up to compensate, much as Toney's. He uses it too. I can cite specific examples if you like.

Absurdly Wide Open -- Give examples. This is rather general.

Incorrect Sloppy Arm Punching -- He throws his left hooks similarly to Frazier (see "Boxing like the pros" and Dempsey's "Championship Fighting") rather than the modern method ("USA Boxing" manual). The back foot is off the ground and pushes to rotate the body rather than sunk to gain backward leverage. It's a matter of preference, and helps his forward momentum since it allows him a few leaping left hooks to compensate for his short arms. He sometimes arm-punches with his jab, but he's mostly using it as an annoyance anyway to get inside. He is, however, stepping and moving forward with the jab, so clearly there's momentum there.

No Speed -- He's fairly fast here. Not Mayweather fast, but faster than many middleweights today. (Including your bete noire Jermain Taylor ). I think you're seeing what you want to see. If you like, we could compare average combination punch time between the two using Youtube film, but that would take a while.

Timing and Distance -- Don't know what you're seeing here. LaMotta doesn't flinch when Robinson is firing too far away to do damage, so his distance can't be that bad. As for timing, he lands enough on a moving target that I doubt his timing was poor. You're going to have to give examples for these generalizations.